I think it is the same as a gnrh-test. It stimulates LH and you follow how your T reacts.
Before you will be diagnosed with Hypogonadism type II, consider that your LH reaction might be supressed by excesive progesteron production, which indicates a completely different reason for weak communication between H-P.
READ THE LAST SENTENCE (ESPECIALY MEW!)
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ā¦ 003709.htm
We are stuck in a stage of luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. I was telling you that many times and I repeat it again.
Your H-P GNRH sensitivity is supressed by your elevated progesteron, you are not hypogonadal type II as many ādoctorsā will tell you after this test.
Now I will repeat million and second time what is going on in hear.
You are going through hiperprogesteronemia, or whatever you want to call.
It fucks both H-P communication, supressing LH, FSH reaction to gonadotropin plus it inhibits 5 alpha reductase. Then you are getting even worse because your sleep pattern gets worse and worse due to the suppression of neurotransmitters caused by the same progesteron.(three in one like a promotion).
Your hormonal imbalance is caused by leaky gut/candida that was developed during long term drug abuse (including Terp03 who f***ed up his gut with Paxil and then developed candida, but thinks it is due to saw palmetto:)).
You are stuck in a toxicity which apears as hyperprogesteronemia in the hormonal tests. You are f****ing yourself up even more providing even as little as anti-hairloss shampoo today.
If you get away from the leaky gut/candida using Nystatine/ Probiotics(Trilac), if you stop using anything, anything!! which is anti-hairloss, zero sugar, zero caffeine, light diet, exercise and you will get rid of this toxicity, and both progesteron and LH response will get back to normal.
Ament
Will have to ask about this.
Just checked how much I weighā¦96kg! I was about 84 when this mess started and have been on a max 2000 kcal a day diet eventhough I lift every other day. As I wrote earlier, I really starte to bloat after quitting. As if my metabolism is still extremely messed up.
Onni. I try to explain digestive issue and its importance since forever.
Follow my advices.
Read slowly not to get this jibber jabber feeling any more.
PS: What do you want to ask your doctor for??? Wheather you are in a luteal phase of the menstrual cycle???
What do you expect to be told then?
You have studies about progesteron influance, you have elevated progesteron. There are no drugs to fight this condition. Your doctor will tell you that it is going to go away, just like luteal phase of the menstrual cycle goes away.
In the future doctor will propably prescribe you RU 486, or something else which inhibits progesteron, and would propably bring H-P communication/5AR back to normality within days.
IT is not registered yet so you have to fight on your ownā¦ but on the other hand RU 486 would also mess up with your leaky gut.
It is better to fight it on your own then.
Well I have not measured my progesteron and if it cannot be lowered, I see very little point in doing so. I will give the whole case to my docās hands, reading theories on the internet without any proof will not help me:( And how would fin effect progesteron after quitting?
Most of guys here got this issue. How it Happaned? Ask Merck, why after years of treatment it does not approach normal range.
I helped you in understanding why your H-P GNRH response is not working correctly. I presented a very promissing explanation based on studies of this coincidence ā> high progesteron + low GNRH response.
If you do not find any logical clues for yourself I cannot help you with that.
Your doctor may rather classify you as Hypogonadal, which from my study based knowledge might be a total bullshit.
Going back to progesteron issue, why it is elevatedā¦ ?I suppose it is the part of a toxic reaction taking place at your leaky gut. Here starts the whole mess of hormonal imbalance and sleep disorders via weaken neurotransmitions.
He is possibly suggesting that due to Finās blockade of Progesterone --> Allopregnanolone, that this can lead to an accumulation of Progesterone such that it inhibits 5AR activity/DHT even after quitting the drug (if one is left with elevated Progesterone levels, since Majkellos is suggesting this will operate as 5AR inhibitor in vivo), which could also potentially inhibit GnRH release (GnRH from hypothalamus controls pituitary LH/FSH release, which controls testicular T production/spermatogenesis).
As for Finasteride connection (in mice):
jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/9/3572
"Finasteride administration resulted in a moderate accumulation of progesterone and in depletion of both 5-pregnane-3,20-dione and allopregnanolone levels (Trapani et al., 2002). "
āOn the other hand, progesterone or its endogenous accumulation by finasteride inhibition of 5-reductase activity blocked the cocaine-induced response.ā
I have not done extensive research into the Progesterone theory so this is off the top of my head, but I have read that it can act as a 5AR inhibitorā¦ however, wether this is of relevance IN VIVO is probably unlikely, based on the following:
books.google.com/books?id=IYn4Va ā¦ lvKRrxkdjI
andā¦
scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ā¦ or+in+vivo (bottom of page)
Finasteride, a Type 2 5a-reductase inhibitor, in the treatment of men with androgenetic alopecia
KD Kaufman, RP Dawber - Exp Opin Investig Drugs, 1999 - Expert Opinion
āā¦ substrates, such as progesterone, inhibit the reduction of testosterone in vitro, but are metabolised too rapidly to be effective inhibitors in vivo. ā¦ā
On the other hand, there is this:
blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ā¦ 01.10100.x
"Results: Plasma allopregnanolone levels were markedly increased during pseudopregnancy (peak level, 55.1 vs. control diestrous level, 9.3 ng/mL) and were reduced by 86% 24 h after finasteride treatment (6.4 ng/mL). Progesterone levels were unaffected by finasteride. "
Majkellos, can you dig up some more info on Finasteride + Progesterone, 5AR and GnRH inhibition in males? Google Scholar is a good place to start.
Just to make it very simple for you guys. I did some junkfood test this night. I eat half of pizza before going to bed.
I woke up just now at 5:00 with a total mess in my brain and a limp dick. I have the worse sleep this night since a month and I feel like shit again. I have this androgen insesitivity like feeling, and fart like crazy.
If I would not mess with my leaky gut this night with junkfood I would do the next day on my way to recovery, I would sleep way better and would feel much better and motivated to go to the gym in the morning.
Instead of this I am typing this message to you right now.
Ok seriously, this is getting ridiculous.
You do realize if any reputable doctor were to browse your posts he would brand us all as loonies, right? You have no interest in basing your posts on scientific materials, even at my and othersā requests. Instead you continue to blabber on about random theories with no materials to back you up.
Please, stop self-diagnosing with half-baked theories and just work with your doctors. Every week with you its something different ā one week its Progesterone issues, next its 5AR mutation, next its insulin resistance causing brain damage, now its āleaky gutā (does such a diagnosis even exist? BTW, you havenāt been diagnosed by a medical professional with it) and candida, and Probiotics are going to cure everyone hereā¦ and now Dut and Fin are responsible for pizza causing your farts, lol. GIVE ME A BREAK. Do you even realize what the stuff you are typing sounds like, without any scientific quotes to back up your claims?
Man, you even said the following YOURSELF!!!
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1081
All these rambling theories arenāt helping your credibility around here, especially considering you havenāt produced a single piece of scientific material (besides one sentence in the above link you posted) to support any of your thoughts. The one thread where you are thinking RATIONALLY is in the above link, since you have some answers from the doc.
Otherwise, your posts are starting to border on lunacy and really, not contributing much, personally. You may counter with āpeople who present theories without evidence are treated as criminals around hereā, but seriously, what do you expect?? Without scientitic materials to bolster your claims, its all conjecture ā and that goes for ANYONE posting such theories.
Why SHOULD anyone trust someone ājust becauseā, let alone online? Not only is it stupid, itās dangerous. If I told you to take cyanide to cure your Finasteride ailments because I heard it activates 5AR, would you? NO, because if you had any foresight you would investigate what would happen if you take cyanide by RESEARCHING and countering my argument with the MATERIALS you found that say cyanide is DEADLY.
Itās the same for any of the theories you are presenting, you need to quote materials so we can get a sense as to WHY you are suggesting the theories you do.
I mean, why do you think studies and the scientific method even EXIST? Doctors certainly donāt go about prescribing medication to self-diagnosing hypchondriacs just because a person might āthinkā they have a condition, and they will certainly brand you as one without materials to backup your claims. Nevermind the potential legal ramificationsā¦ you want to get treated by docs? Then fight fire with fire, talk to them in THEIR language, and PROVE your points with science. Otherwise youāll never get anywhere.
Again, you even said the following YOURSELF!!!
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1081
So instead of all this theorical business, you should concentrate on working with your doctor who has diagnosed you with liver problems, pneumonia and possibly diabetes, and report back to us once you have some updates on treatments he has given you and your progressā¦ because so far those are the ONLY issues you have been diagnosed with.
You might want to just chill out for awhile, consider taking a break from this site, get your mind off thingsā¦ if you want to post updates on your situation, please post them under your OWN members story for those interestedā¦ but please stop hijacking threads with self-diagnoses lacking scientific evidence. This thread is about Onniās personal story, not yours.
Majkellos, one last time ā There are materials out there you can use to backup your points, and you SHOULD. Otherwise everything one says is just one manās thoughts in his head, and you will have great trouble convincing people online, let alone doctors.
I already visited doctors who take care of my liver, pneumoniae, diabetes. The diagnosis is:
Liver - little signs of lipomathosis does not indicate anything wrong there. It is typical for the guy being 30 years old.
Pneumoniae - IGG (even 4 times above the range) is the sign that I have been going through pneumoniae in the past, but means nothing for me today, because it is not active. Most people have IGG result above the range.
Diabetes - my morning insuline (below the range) means nothing. Other results, 2 hours after meal insuline, glucose are completely normal. Cholesterol is something to care of but nothing abnormal two. I do not have any problems in this department too.
I will paste it to my blood tests section.
Now I am after blood/urine/stool tests for all kinds of bacteria/peptites. I have to wait for the results about 10 days. I will report if there will be anything strange.
Thing that made you shout at me so loud is just the simple idea of the importance of taking care of digestive system and the high propability of candida/leaky gut causing toxic reaction further.
My condition has improved significantly over the last month, so I thought I should give others hope as the situation was extremely bad only a few months ago.
Major problems after quitting fin:
-numb genitals
-ED
-zero libido
-twisted rubbery penis with emerged veins
-gyno
-eye pain
-extreme weight gain
-overall physical weakness
-brain fog and depression
-pale aids-like face
Now after over six months my genitals are no longer numb and dick is straightening. By no means as it was, but much better than before. The tissue changes and veins are still present and size is not what it was.Erections are better and libido has improved. Gyno is still present but nipples do not hurt and are not so puffy as before and donāt have a B-cup anymore, although not a normal chest as it wasā¦will get surgery appointment tomorrow. Eye pain is also gone and vision is 99% normal and the weight gain has stopped. Am now able to go to the gym and train, before it was physically almost impossible as I was so weak. Extremely weird feeling as I used to be at 85kg with about 12% fat. My face is also looking more like it used to day by day, but Iām still pale with a reddish complexion and my face burns up easily. Mentally I am 100% back. Although depressed about this whole mess, but I donāt feel āout of itā anymore.
Drugs taken at this time:
-Cabergoline for elevated prolactin and lowered libido
-NSAID pills for possible prostatitis
-Arcoxia for joint pain
-took valium when I was feeling really suicidal about this
-betablockers for facial flushing
-cialis(did nothing)
I have a feeling that none of these pills made a real difference, but cannot be sure. I really started getting better at the six months mark and a pathologist said something about finās effects and six months, but I know that the half life is much shorter, so maybe he was right. Could be a pure coincidence.
TRT is next on my list.
edit: The painkillers for my prostate were caller Pronaxen, itās basically naprometin 500mg twice a day.
1 Like
Hi Omni,
Thank you for posting something positive on the forum. It really helps when you can look the posts and see that positive change can occur. If you donāt mind, could you please describe how your penis is seeming to heal from its damaged state. I have the same situation, where my penis has literally transformed before my eyes, gotten weak at the base, shrunk, completely numb, and full of varicose veins. I have almost complete ED, and ZERO libido. I can literally look at the most erotic porn and its like looking at cars driving on the road. You know something is really wrong. I just feel like genital sensitivity and libido are 100% directly related. If the nerves arent working correctly, your brain cant process the stimulation. Also, did you notice that your orgasms were about 1/10 the normal pleasure in your old state? What, if any of the following, do you think is the most likely thing that has helped you recover. Obsessing over this is too easy, and its like ive lost my whole life because of this penis problem. Did you work out when you got better, or just after you got better? Did you get deeper and longer sleep before you recovered. Try to think of anything, no matter how insignificant that helped. Also, when your penis shrunk and got numb, did you notice it felt like the pc muscles or the penis base tissue was damaged or smashed? I lost the ability to make my penis jump by flexing my pc muscles. My penis now tilts to the left, which it never did. There is nothing more maddening than a doctor who looks at your penis for 5 seconds to say it looks ānormal to himā, when you know your own body for 25+ years, and its so far from normal its not even funny. What worries me the most is I have been numb for more than 6 months, but I suppose there is always a possibility for turnaround. Sorry for the long post, but did you say you took antibiotics once and it helped the situation temporarily. Thanks again.
I would have to say Deep sleep, nutrition, zinc, aerobic excercise (at least) to get blood pumping around and blood vessels dilated, and no-depression. People suffer from all kinds of physical problems when they are depressed. There are energy and blood flow blockages, and I tend to break out, get a sore back, headaches, whatever, when I am depressed.
Pretty much, sorry to ad to your post Onni, but I am recovering, and an oriental medicine practitioner is really helping me. Acupuncture and some body work, to try to get me back into alignment and the ādampnessā out of me. My symptoms are disappearing. I am also not drinking anymore.
But according to Chinese medicine, this is a kidney and spleen deficiency, and ādampnessā within, which will not go away. My practitioner translates it as more of a lymph problem. This part of the body is having trouble washing away these toxins and dampness, there is blockages in there, its causing the digestion problems, gas, prostatitis, and loss of libido, there is just internal pressure. This even can have an efect on hormone pathways. Just as all the literature states, when a man has certain diseases or organ malfunctions, hormones are not metabolized, made, or circulated properly.
This is just a whole cluster fuck. I agree.
But I will say that I am slowly recovering, its not in my head. This guy (oriental practitioner) is helping me tremendously. Thank god heās a friend of a good friend. Heās a huge guy, and very opinionated, but very interested, and active. He also wants some tree work done, so he is working hard to heal me with weekly appointments, and then I will do a bunch of work for him out in the field.
Anyway, I hope this is of any help to any of you. It could take the body a long and slow recovery before it can return to homeostasis. 
It is a slow slow process, and Iām not gonna set it back ten fold AGAIN by going out and getting smashed, and clogging everything up again. Stuff is just starting to feel as if it is starting to flow again, for real this time.
Thanks for your recovery post Onni, I hope this helps.
I have started with that too. Did he give you any herbs? If so, which ones?
Have been taking two capsules of those antibiotics per day, sensitivity downstairs has improved somewhat but the physical changes are still present and erections are poor (even with levitra 20mg which made me feel extremely ill). Could also be due to poor libido, all ed-meds require that to work, and after fin a naked chick is as exciting as a phonebooth.
Will make an appointment with another uro and ask for a doppler as a last attempt to fix this. To be honest, I think only time will fix this ā¦if even that.
Also added vitamins and 40mg of zinc to my regimen. My body is not all watery and wobbly anymore, but weight is stuck at 96kg.
Oh, T is getting back up and is at 28nmol (was 12 after fin), cortisol and prolactin are also now fine.
What ever happened to going to a real endocrinologist? One that has had success and experience treating the finasteride condition?? 
No offense to anyone on here, but sometimes I feel like I just cant believe my eyes. All these people suffering on here, but noone going to the specialists who actually cure people from this.??
I know its hard guys. Also, I think a lot of us are having trouble with it because in the back of our minds we might subconciously feel that they are just a last hope, and so if they dont work out, then we are fucked, so people are afraid to visit them, because they dont want to get bad news or anything.
Well, anyway, for me, it took me a while to get organized enough to jump through all the hoops and pull off contacting these guys, put my eggs in a basket, and say ālets do itā. So its official now. I have sent in my forms to Crislerās office. I am expecting an appoitnment with him sometime within the month.
Hopefully he can help me urge my testicles back on track.
What the fuc*? Have been to two endos now and hormones are in check.
Sorry about the post, I was hungover, but are you sure they are in check? An according to who??
I have been told the same thing by two different endos, although I still have some things out of range, or too low or high I believe.
Didnāt you say some of your symptoms are still present.
Also, I forgot to say. Dude, donāt jump on the surgery wagon too soon. You might want to wait. I forget where I read it, but have read that gyno can be reversed sometimes by certain anti-estrogen therapies such as Clomid or Arimidex I think, or something like that I think. Iāll try to remember where I found the article but I know that Iāve read it. It was a scientific report I think also. It said something like in 50% of cases, or more maybe.
Take it from someone who has had surgeries. Sometimes the scars can be more damaging than the condition, so you might want to wait it out a little longer to see if you cant reverse it through hormone therapy first, because you might be acting too quickly and impulsively. Again, try seeing Crisler for this.
Peace,
Good luck 
Yes everything is in check. Will take new blood tests in a month to make sure.
Tamoxifen and clomid are not prescribed for gyno here. I got a prescription on my own, but donāt want to take it if Iām not under medical supervision. So that leaves only surgery as an option. And by looking at old photos, I think I had a small amount to begin with, so Iām going through with it.
The coldness in my balls is slowly decreasing with antibiotics and painkillers, so Iām guessing that was a prostate issue.
Onni, you gotta get a doctor that will work with you. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) is off-label for men here too but my doc. is giving it to me anyhow. Listed side effects are pretty scary, but both my endo and my gp consider Tamoxifen to have a good safety record. It is also very commonly used in the body building scene. Just stay away from generics - I tried that once in the past and had the feeling the stuff was going to kill me.
I am currently on 30mg/day with no sides. It does help for gyno.