I know this discussion have been made a lot of times here. I’m a doctor, and i’ve taken propecia for 6 months. Yes, i’m experiencing all the side effects related here, but, something is wrong in conclusions here. We have to think in numbers, not in reported cases. Decrease sexual performance is a very common situation, in lot of people, using or not using any drug. Propecia is a very common use drug. So, we are talking about 2 very common situations, it is not right to take this two variables and conclude that one is the cause of the other. I’ve note that all posts here are filled with reported cases. This is a very amateur conclusion. The second point is : as i can remember, there is no report of any drug that can, after discontinuation, cause such effect in endocryne system or any other system of the body. Any drug that can me metabolized and excreted from the body will have the effect finished after awhile. I know there are many cases, but there are many identical cases without using any drug ! so , i would aprecciate any comments ! in fact i don’t have a strong opinion, and i’m in doubt…thank you
You know, every once in awhile we get disbelievers that feel the need to come here to belittle and post that we are just making all this stuff up, and that the drug could never cause the problems we’re experiencing. Seems that’s the case here once again.
So – what are YOUR credentials and where can we contact you (name, phone, address of your practice) to verify your claims that you are in fact “a doctor”? Have you published any research? Where can we read your biography and curriculum vitae online?
Because as you know, anyone can say anything on the Internet with complete anonymity.
Regarding your dismissal of “permanent” side effects, not everyone who takes the drug has problems. Out of those that do, the majority return to normal after discontinuation.
We on the other hand are a subset of men for whom the side effects experienced did NOT resolve, even after quitting – in fact, they only got worse.
Numerous men’s hormonal profiles and pathologies reflect the common hormonal changes that occur shortly after quitting – near-hypogonadal Testosterone, LH, FSH, often elevated Estradiol, TSH and prolactin. Please read the FAQ at top of site for more info.
This is not “in our heads”, thank you very much.
Believe what you want… the fact is erectile dysfunction, loss of libido, ejaculate changes, gynecomastia, and various other side effects are officially listed by Merck on their own product. Merck has also updated their product leaflet in Sweden to reflect the possibility of permanent ED after taking Finasteride, as noted here:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2002
It would seem YOU are the one choosing to bury your head in the sand with your dismissal of such side effects.
Your claims of “decreasing” sexual performance holds no weight here. There are plenty of perfectly healthy and prior sexually functional 21 year old men who before Finasteride had rock solid erections, raging libidos, large ejaculate volume and force, morning erections, spontaneous and nocturnal erections… but since taking Finasteride are impotent and have none of the aforementioned sexual function present any longer.
Trying to label these sexual dysfunction issues as “psychological” and “made up”, when such problems are in fact listed by the manufacturer as a possible outcome of using their anti-androgenic and neurosteroid inhibiting drug, is simply choosing to disbelieve reality and label those who have experienced such things as bold-faced liars.
I ask you – have you even read through the medical research in the Finasteride Studies section of this site? If so, I doubt you would post such uneducated comments.
Please do yourself a favor and review what the drug actually does, including it’s many unlisted mechanisms of action BEYOND what Merck chooses to tell you.
Thank you for your explanation. In fact, your argumentation is very solid and I’ll keep my mind open for this ideas. My first impressions were exclusively based on how any doctor or medical research would think today, i mean : evidence based medicine. Ever effect or side effect of any drug can be said to be tru or false if we have a controlled study, with a minimum number of patients using the drug and the same number of patients not using the drug. So, it sounds a bit precipitous to hear some conclusions based on reported cases. But… you are right, we cannot be negligent with all this complaints, and my opinion is that is not a good choice to use propecia. I’ll keep my eyes open, and follow this forum. thank you !
But you (representing the average MD) do EXACTLY that. You hear devastated young Johnny complain of sexual dysfunction after using PROPECIA® for x days, say “I’ve not heard of it being a big deal and that it will definitely subside; (insert MSD patient info reiteration here)”, with a smile propped up by MSD’s ‘white lies’ and revenue. If you’re so bold you perhaps check serum hormones, and when the 3 you ordered appear at the lowest or highest ranges, you say you can’t do a thing, those hormones’ effects should be adequate (watching your ass)!Perhaps, even, the damaged patient might mention spouts of anxiety, lack of mental clarity, or being in a state of ‘brain fog’ - something he’s never had before… and the hat has dropped, and you want it to be shipped to the looney bin’s coatrack, and get this person out of your practice. At the end of the day, you don’t need to be on a wild goose chase to assess this man’s physiological situation fully, you just want your copay, and cases you can take credit for in a more effcient fashion.
If members of this forum have learned anything, it’s that doctors do not seek to heal you; they are the middleman between you and your health. And that middleman is sleeping on the job.
elaborate… reported cases are numbers, mounting ones.
Yeah, however in most cases it occurs without outside influence, and the ratio for young to old men who get ED is like 20%:80%. I’m assuming you didn’t miss the part where it was stated that ED was an immediate reaction of the drug?
I didn’t know the Finasteride Studies and Other Studies sections are mirages to “Doctors”. Plenty of specific scientific research corroborating our claims.
For sake of semantics, finasteride can have adverse effects while on or after quitting. How about mayoclinic.com/health/drug-i … n/DR602077 ?
You may encounter a guy who said fin has done wonders for him in 8 years, and have him introduce the kids he made while on drug to you. That is the majority of users, we don’t deny that. But we are here as the red flag to tell humanity that not everything about this drug is being told, and it can have very undesirable side effects that can cause unresolved damages and interfere with your quality of life. There are no negating qualities to our stories - we were healthy happy males until taking fin. Ironically, scientific research supports the minority’s conclusions.
Pleased to have your interest and purported expertise. Hopefully you learn something from being here.
“Doctor”.
Don’t give this guy such a hard time. He’s come to this site and been open with us. He has said, “I’m a doctor. It’s strange, because there isn’t evidence that finasteride can cause these problems. But it looks like something is going on; I’m interested to learn more.”
For his trouble, he’s been blasted out of the water. I know life is tough for us post-Fin. I know we’ve all had experience of medical professionals who have let us down. But none of that is this guy’s fault.
Doctors and endocrinologists aren’t going to drop everthing they think they know about finasteride immediately, just because we tell them to. We have to be prepared to persuade them, by directing them to the weight of cases here, and the studies. And we’ll be far more effective if we do that in a friendly, personable way.
We’re not going to get help if we come across as a bunch of angry, hostile, bitter obsessives. That only plays into the hands of people who would claim that we are psychologically ill, not physically ill.
Surely it would be a dream for this site if more doctors came here, and started to get interested in us. I know Mew is working on a website intended to drum up interest in the medical community, and that is exactly the kind of work that’s needed: great work Mew. But when that website is ready, we have to get our house in order in terms of the way we present ourselves to the world.
3pm,
Fantastic post.
Scaredmale30,
Nice post as well
It is a really difficult thing that we have to live with everyday and 3pm’s post is the exact thing you want to tell these “professionals.” Besides our horrid side effects, nothing sucks more than to know these MD’s just don’t believe us, and that we’re some how the screwy ones. It takes a hell of a guy to be able to have such tact and discretion in the midst of life altering sides. Right on to both of you.
Fixed.
I can’t excuse lacking sufficient knowledge of a prescribed medication’s true actions, or not caring enough about the patient to at least investigate their medical situation, while he pays the doctor for examination and treatment, only to be met with apathy and disbelief. Bad enough they don’t know what to do and aren’t honest about it, but we don’t even get acknowledgment from them that we’re hurting. Something’s gravely wrong with that approach, and such overwhelming negligence allows epidemics like this to happen, when the medical profession is specifically to blame. No, it’s not this man’s fault this happens, but it’s a common mistake to tell these victims nothing is wrong where there is, and it comes from ignorance. I’m blasting the presence of ignorance and practicing irresponsible medicine - something that has a great percentage of inducing damages and deaths as a side effect - the very opposite of the goal of medicine.
I understand you want to be very diplomatic, but the proof is in the pudding. All it requires is for someone to get off their high horse and look. Furthermore I’m not flaming this guy, I’m just correcting his naive questions.
Hi
I know our situation is frustrating. But proper advocacy to the medical profession is really important.
I can’t excuse a doctor who treats his patient negligently either, but this guy has not done that.
What has he done? First, he’s come here and made a series of perfectly reasonable statements:
(i) I see you guys took Propecia, and now have ED, lack of libido, etc.
(ii) There are people who don’t take Propecia, and have ED, lack of libido, etc.
(iii) Just because you took Propecia and have these things, doesn’t prove that Propecia caused them. So, let’s talk about it.
He then explicitly stated: "I would appreciate further comments. I have no strong opinion. "
Of course, we happen to know through personal experience that Finasteride did cause these symptoms. But this guy isn’t us. He doesn’t know that. He’s coming here with an open mind, wanting to discuss the issue. He has had the temerity to start by suggesting a point of view that we don’t share.
For his trouble, you blasted him out of the water. You call him ignorant because he doesn’t have a wide-ranging knowledge of studies on finasteride, and hasn’t immersed himself in all the case studies on this site. But it’s exactly that knowledge that he came here to acquire, and he states as much. I suppose he thought he might accompany his study of this site with a friendly conversation.
I hope we all take it as a given that we want more doctors to be interested in our cases. I’m not quite sure what you expect doctors to think when they first hear about us, but they are of course going to look at all possible explanations for our experience.
They will think:
(i) I know finasteride is approved by the FDA
(ii) I know hundreds of thousands of men are taking it
(iii) I know millions of men take 5mg finasteride in the form of Proscar
(iv) Now here is this scared looking 2X-year-old guy telling me he has also taken it, and has sides.
They are not automatically going to think: “right, that’s it, no doubt about it, finasteride causes persisting sides. I’ve got to get the word out, and start researching this.” They are going to exclude other explanations first, and then go to that explanation when others are put aside.
If you won’t deal with any doctor who acts in that way, then you aren’t going to deal with any doctor, except the very few who have already seen enough Propecia cases to persuade them that something is going on. But we want more doctors interested in us.
If we don’t believe anyone on this site who says he is a doctor, then we can have 1,000 doctors posting on this site, and we still won’t have any doctors.
Our job is to draw doctors to our case, and help to persuade them that something unusual is going on.
You state: “All is takes is for someone to get down off their high horse and look”. Isn’t that what this guy was trying to do? I’m not sure about your GP, endo, etc, but I don’t see mine spending time on this site or trying to discuss our problem with us in his free time. You’ve got the good guys and the bad guys mixed up.
On the upside, the way you finished your post with the single word “doctor” had a hint of genius about it. It made you sound like the villian in a bad B-movie from the 1960s. The full version should read:
“Doctor”
Cut to the exterior of a gothic castle at night. Dark cloud scuds across a full-moon. A bolt of lightening flashes across the sky, followed by the deafening crack of thunder. We zoom in on a window in the tallest turret of the castle, to see 3pm seated in a huge leather chair, stroking a black cat. He breaks into a terrifying, evil laugh.
Mwahaha Mwahahahaha MwHAHAHAAHAAA!
LOL. Creative. Your mind must be working clear today…I remember those days…
And I specifically requested proof of this claim, with none given. Until this is proven, I will err on the side of “not”.
That’s just how it has to be in “Internet-land”, anyone can say they are anything.
No offense ernest if you are in a fact a doctor, but you must understand the reasoning behind asking for proof of this.
This is what’s always been so bewildering to me: the company that makes the drug writes on its own label that it can have damaging effects on erectile function and libido. Yet somehow the possibility that these things do not clear up after stopping totally escapes (supposedly scientific-minded and empirical) people who haven’t had the joy of experiencing it. It’s really, really not that far-fetched, for crying out loud.
Never mind long-term sides for a moment; I’d love to hear Merck offer any explanation for why their drug may cause these sides while taking it in the first place. Unless their answer was “I don’t know,” there’s absolutely nothing they could say or theorize that could be reconciled with the impossibility of long-term sides. The company obviously knew well enough even in clinical trials that messing with hormones might ruin a person’s sex drive. One of the few truthful claims they have made. I’m assuming when I read side effect warnings on the label of a drug like “may cause erectile dysfunction” that I’m not supposed to also read an invisible subtext of “but these are only psychological. Don’t worry!”
I’ll never understand how or why it’s such a massive leap to get from accepting that this drug causes sides to accepting that they do not clear up for some people, or what exaclty people have at stake that prevents them from making that transition that seems to bloody obvious to the rest of us. Somewhere, someplace, the answer lies in the rolling misty hills of Avalon.
You’d think we’d have half the battle won because the company already damned itself by admitting the sides on the label. Not so fast, gunslinger.
Don’t be a moron. You’re telling me that I can’t understand why a Dr. would dismiss a post-fin case, and that’s just wrong. Way to waste a block of text, ace.
Further, I haven’t criticized him for his statements, I’m just correcting them. BTW quote me where I called him ignorant in a prev post, verbatim, because that’s not quite what I did. What I did do was draw an example for him, demonstrating what lack of fundamental knowledge of the drug’s effect does to a doctor’s dismissal of the case, for his own edification. I put him in that hypothetical because he, like many doc’s out there, ARE in fact ignorant to what the drug really does & adverse effects. I haven’t used this in a derogatory way, maybe hit up dictionary.com and reconsider why you just wasted 10 minutes w/ a tl;dr post about me.
Uhmm… yeah, never expected they would. What I would expect is for a Dr. to conduct proper exams, rather than laugh and give you SSRIs, as though sudden onset of sexual dysfunction at age 19 concurrent with finasteride use isn’t a problem or quality of life matter.
We’re in the process of opening their eyes and showing them the data, because they aren’t medication scientists, they simply use the meds that are approved. I’ve been instrumental in informing many professionals about this scary reality, and given them the facts to support my claim, so curb your need to explain to me how it’s done.
Yes he was trying, but I wasn’t accusing. I merely pointed out that he managed to completely miss the studies area…that and the fact that I was speaking generally.
I’m not speaking in offensive ways, I’m speaking truthfully. If he’s a Dr., I’m sure he’ll understand, and doesn’t need you taking the focus off this thread. Maybe you should spend the time it took you to criticize my post and demonstrate an epic fail at humor to call the MPA like you said you would 4 weeks ago.
Mew:
Fair enough. It’s reasonable to be sceptical about claims made anonymously on an internet forum.
But given that he has said that he is himself taking Propecia, it’s understandable that he doesn’t want to tell us his name and the address of his practice, isn’t it? You can’t have expected him to essentially divulge a part of his medical history online, for everyone to read. Just like I’m not going to tell you my name and address, and you’re not going to tell me yours.
Maybe he is not a doctor. But it’s hard to see what harm would come from taking his claim at face value in the first instance, and engaging him in conversation. What is his interest in finasteride (besides the fact he is taking it)? What country is he from? Does he know other medical professionals interested in finasteride? Could he spare the time to have a closer look at this site, and share more thoughts? If he turns out to be a time waster, did we lose that much?
Anyway, all that is not really my point. My point, really, is about the way we deal with medical professionals, and people generally, and how that impacts on our quest to get help.
This guy wasn’t rude. He didn’t ridicule us, or belittle us. He simply put forward a point of view, and then said he was open to discussion. The point of view he put forward is the default position of medical community, and the world at large, at this time. We have to engage with people who hold this view if we are going to get anywhere.
You know that: that’s why you’re working hard to make this new site, which is a great idea. The vast majority of medical professionals won’t bother to look at that site. Of the few that do, most won’t reply to us. Of those that reply to us, the vast majority will take a position just like this guy’s. We need to be prepared for the long, arduous task of managing that. If we are patient, open and persuasive, we might bring one or two around if we are really lucky.
Then take your point in a new thread, so this man can have the time to sift through these posts and actually respond.
I think everything that needs to be said here has been said. We don’t need in-fighting between members. Healthy debate, yes, but we need to keep our cool.
I admit my initial post to “ernest” may have come off a bit rude, but I was simply trying to counter his claims that the drug cannot be linked to causing these problems in men, despite Merck’s labelling saying it can.
Irregardless I think we should just step back, let him respond if he chooses (and provide proof of his credentials so we can take what he says at face value), and go from there.
3pm:
Hi, it’s Moron here. Harsh.
First, sorry you didn’t like my joke. I just hoped it would make you and everyone else smile; I didn’t mean to offend.
Thanks for taking the time to search my posts. I did feel bad about my failure to call the MPA: I promised to do it and then I couldn’t bring myself to. I guess I’m not in the place right now where I can. I hope everyone understands.
If you think that the tone you took with the poster was the most effective possible in terms of engaging him in constructive conversation, opening his eyes to our problem, and making him feel that this forum is a place he’d like to be, then OK. I suppose we just have different feelings on how friendly strangers speak to one another. Maybe you’re right, and I’m just out of touch.
As for the bit where you called him ignorant, I suppose I was thinking of the bit of your post where you took a quote from me:
“For his trouble,…”
And changed it to
“For his ignorance…”
Which seems to attribute the characteristic of ignorance to the orginal poster, making him, in a quite straightforward way, ignorant.
But maybe I was just misreading you.
Actually Mew, I think your response was pretty spot-on! It was very articulate, and cutting! You totally shut him down!!! Arrogant doctor prick! 
j/k…
Your offensive attempt at sarcasm isn’t needed here. Mew was serious, and we’d like to keep this thread on-topic (waiting to hear from ernest), so please post your incisory remarks elsewhere. Thanks
Yes, i’m a doctor and i don’t want to identify, sorry. I didnt enter here to fight , neither to discuss hardly. Maybe my first post looked too agressively, but that was not the intention. I’m on the same boat as many in this forum, and i’m scared too. Like me, i expect you will keep your eyes open for any argument or suggestion, this is a better attitude when we are treating with human fisiology , because we know that doctors of the past has aready make many mistakes just because they believed in facts that were happen, and could not see the problem from an estatistic point of view. I live in Brasil, and i’m not prescribing propecia. The problems that are been discussing here in this forum i’ve never heard before, even discussing with other doctors that usually prescribing it. I’ll start to talk about it with my collegues…thank you all…i know that you understood what i mean now and i pretend to maintain the discussion in other aspects in this forum…(sorry for the poor english).
ernest,
Have you discontinued Propecia? As you probably know, the side effects are meant to disappear after a month or two after stopping the drug, are you still within that time-frame?
It would be great if you posted a brief member story (remaining as nondescript as you’d like to maintain anonymity) here, and fill out our side effects template to see which among the lovely menu of side effects you’re experiencing.
You have the advantage of being able to look at this from a more medically-educated point of view, but your initial post was quite off-base regarding how these symptoms are induced. Finasteride does something to our hormonal homeostasis and is also a neurosteroid inhibitor, aggravating anxiety. BTW, if you don’t mind telling, what kind of doctor are you?
Looking forward to your input and story, hopefully you can inform more of your colleagues about the dangerous implications of inhibiting 5ar. Thanks and we appreciate your presence here.