M_81's story: 4 pills in November 2009

Member Stories
#41

I haven’t updated my story in a while for a couple of reasons. First, I feel that 99% of the members of this board don’t understand hormones and, therefore, their feedback is useless. Second, I’ve had bad experiences on this website with a member, Oscar, who tried to derail a thread where I have been participating very actively. For this reason, I prefer posting on musclechatroom.com, where he is banned. In general, by detailing my progress on this thread, I am afraid that some members may criticize my hormonal therapy in a non-constructive way; for example, by stubbornly trying to prove that their theories are the best (as if they earned something from such behavior).

Nevertheless, since I have good consideration for a small subset of members of this board, I would like to share my experience with them. Hopefully, this will be useful to others, too.

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In the past 5 months, followed by my doctor, I’ve been trying to boost my metabolic rate via pregnenolone and T3. Recently, I’ve switched T3 for some T4. I have definitely been feeling way better than before starting the therapy. My energy and stamina came back, although they were strongly dependent on the dose of T3 and pregnenolone taken. I’ve had a few periods of low energy too, from which I could escape via high dose of pregnenolone.

For the past 5 days, though, I’ve introduced progesterone and have had great results. This is my latest regimen:

  • 100 mg TD pregnenolone, 4 times a day
  • 50 mg micronized pregnenolone, 4 times a day
  • 40 mg TD progesterone, 4 times a day
  • 50 mcg T4, once a day
  • 5 mcg slow release T3, 4 times a day
  • DHEA: 50 mg micronized in the morning + some TD DHEA

Results:
Progesterone does a lot better job than pregnenolone in giving energy and motivation. My energy levels are incredible throughout the day. There has been some improvement in libido too. My penis is not as shrunk anymore and pornography slowly causes an erection. But I don’t have the bursts of libido I used to have before fin. Anyways, I’m positively surprised by the effects of progesterone. Before increasing the progesterone, I had a blood and saliva tests, which showed the following:

high pregnenolone
low progesterone
high cortisol
high T3
highish T4
mid-low RT3
low T (~400 vs 550 pre-fin)
very low DHEA
low Free T (70 vs 115 pre-fin)
highish SHBG (43 vs 27 pre-fin)
low E2

So, it seems that my pregnenolone converts into cortisol and not into T. Furthermore, unlike predicted by chilln’s theory, my SHBG did not go down as much by increasing cortisol. Anyway, my pituitary is still releasing very low LH and FSH. So, I’m going to talk to my dr about boosting testosterone soon, possibly via clomid. If the theoretical concepts expressed in the thread viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4784 are correct, then boosting T would have positive and steady effects. In other words, it wouldn’t cause the typical hormonal crash experienced by PFS people (me included, see my story) when they try to boost T. According to that theory, this crash is caused by an insufficient output of cortisol, which I keep high through my therapy.

I’ll meet with my dr tomorrow. I’ll report back soon.

#42

LOL. Apart from the 1% that follow chilln’s theory i suppose?

You havent posted there since I was banned, and i was only banned because certain people have clearly been spreading lies about me. Oh well.

I had no idea you had built up such a hatred for me! :slight_smile: I have not tried to prove what I think is best and probably all my ideas are rubbish. I only asked you to support what you where saying.

Anyway, just so you know the feeling isnt mutual - I feel annoyed at Dr Crisler/chilln for spreading lies (would an AIDS doctor allow the admin of their website to promoted a cure for AIDS?) and genuine sadness for anyone that believes any of it.

#43

Sounds good, m81. Looking forward to your next progress report!

#44

Watching your posts both here and at the other forum. I have been hoping someone gives a detailed log on Chillns therapy… and more importantly, that it shows continuos improvements for them.

Wherever you post, I hope you do so regularly.

#45

Just came back from my dr. He agrees that boosting T should be the next step, but he thinks that clomid approach is a little too aggressive.

He prefers trying to free up my T by reducing SHBG via testoPlex (pureformulas.com/testoplex-120-vegcaps-by-xymogen.html?CAWELAID=532169146). He thinks that by freeing up T a little bit should trigger a virtuous cycle that leads to a stable state, where all hormones stay high forever, as long as I continue taking T4 and some pregnenolone or progesterone.

Note: yeah, I know, some of the ingredients of testoPlex are mild 5ar inhibitors, but they are not as nearly as powerful as finasteride. And I haven’t found anybody who destroyed his life by taking nettle roots, so I am honestly not afraid.

#46

Thanks for your posts on this m_81. One question. What exactly does your doctor mean by clomid being too aggressive? By that does he mean too risky (i.e. potential side effects)?

#47

No, he has no problem with side effects. In fact, I took for 5 months last year (under another dr’s supervision) and had no sides. He thinks it’s unnecessarily powerful for my situation, i.e., he thinks that I don’t need to bump my T to 800 to feel good.

#48

I posted an update here: musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?16432-Need-help-with-adrenal-related-insomnia-and-more&p=153286#post153286.

In summary:

I feel marginally better sexually, in that my penis looks healthier (alhtough it’s still shrunk at some point during the day), my libido is a little better (still far from my pre-fin standards). But I still have no spontaneous erections and most of the days I have no sexual thought.
I feel good energy-wise, although I’ve been experiencing high heart rate when exercising. Not sure what causes it.
I feel awesome mentally (no anxiety, no brain fog, no depression), thanks to my high levels of pregnenolone, which I’m currently supplementing transdermally at a lower dose than in the past, around 400-500 mg/day.

From a blood/saliva test standpoint, I could successfully push the following hormones to the top of their ranges:
pregnenolone, progesterone, cortisol, FT3, FT4, DHEA

Despite this remarkable achievement (on which I’ve worked for the past 6 months), my body does not want to produce testosterone. This, I think, is in contradiction with chilln’s theory and I’m really curious to hear what he thinks. my total T is 460 (300-1080), while my free T is 76 (47-244). Before propecia, my free T was 115. So, I still have a 50% increase to make to reach the same levels.

There seems to be a pattern: those who had success by boosting androgens (JN, Dury), did so by also boosting their metabolic rate. On this board, I haven’t read any story of guys who benefited from a higher level of T without boosting their metabolic rate. Therefore, I think I’m ready to boost my androgen levels and I’ll talk to my dr about it.

#49

I posted an update here: musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?16432-Need-help-with-adrenal-related-insomnia-and-more/page6/#88

This past month, I’ve been taking a little bit of testosterone cream every day. Initially, it was like taking pure poison: within an hour, I would have penis shrinkage, my heart rate would fall under 50 beats/minute, I would be super sleepy. Nevertheless, my face has become oily and I’ve had acne. After a few weeks, taking T was not doing anything at all.

My regimen was:
-700 mg TD pregnenolone per day, divided in three doses
-85 mg TD progesterone per day, divided in 3 doses
-62.5 mcg T4 in 2 doses (no T3 anymore --> obtained detectable TSH)
-3 applications of transdermal DHEA (around 60 mg total)
-TestoPlex (recommended dose)
-T (1/4 teaspoon of a cream that contains 15mg of T per gram, half applied in the morning, half in the afternoon)

Note that I removed maca and got rid of the heart palpitations that prevented me from doing sport. I’ve also started to wear the Y-Age Lifewave patches daily, which most of the times make me feel really really good. They also give me an unbelievable amount of energy. Most importantly, it seems that they made me become more tolerant to fluctuations in the dose of supplements. Before the patches, for example, my heart rate would be a function of the intake of pregnenolone, progesterone, and thyroid hormones. Too much cortisol would lead to >75 beats/minute; too little would lead to < 50 beats/minute. Now, it’s pretty much constant at 60 beats/minute. I also have that sense of calmness and well being that I used to feel 24/7 before propecia. They also make me sleep much better (not still optimal). Really good stuff!

Nevertheless, my libido has been unsatisfactory. Therefore, I took labs to see what was going on:

low T and free T(my record low in a year and a half)
low E2
good thyroid hormones
highish DHT
(the link above contains all details)

My dr gave me a prescription for clomid. I’m going to start it today or tomorrow and I’ll take it for 2 months. Last time I took it, I had a wonderful first week, followed by a nightmare week (brain fog, confusion, fatigue, anxiety, impotence). Then, I kept having cycles of good functions and cycles of pure hell while on clomid.

This time around will be different because now I know that most of these symptoms (all except the libido related ones) are related to adrenal and thyroid hormones (i.e., they are not caused by a negative autoregulation of the androgen receptor). Since I am supplementing adrenal and thyroid hormones, I am not going to experience these horrible sides. Or, if I experience them, I will simply get rid of them by increasing the dose of pregnenolone and progesterone. On the other hand, what clomid will give me libido-wise is out of my control. But the stories of Dury and cgj1 give me some hope because, like them, I will be taking clomid while boosting my metabolic rate.

#50

m_81, I don’t think clomid addresses the underlying problem that is causing your body to be in such bad condition. I imagine you are just desperate for some relief.

It just seems the number of guys that had success with this form of treatment is low.

#51

Yeah, so sitting around doing nothing is a much better alternative to trying clomid. Give it a rest.

He is treating hormone abnormalities under the care of his doctor - it is the best any of us can do.

#52

m18 did u have penis numbess and how bad/ howblong. did this improve on clomid

#53

You misread my post. I am not in “such a bad condition”. I generally feel very good, except sexually. I agree that the “such bad condition” (brain fog, fatigue, depression, anxiety, etc…) is NOT addressed by clomid; it is addressed (i.e., I address it) by supplmenting thyroid and adrenal hormones. Whether this treatment addresses the underlying cause or not, I don’t know, but it certainly treats the symptoms caused by low thyroid and low adrenal hormones.

Furthermore, I am convinced that, as long as I keep supplementing with adrenal and thyroid hormones, I will be able to take clomid WITHOUT experiencing the hormonal crash that pfs males experience when they raise their T (e.g., myself when I took clomid last year). I think that this crash is an adrenal crash, and is not caused by the molecular behavior of the receptors. If I’m wrong, I will crash badly within few days and stop clomid; if I’m right, I will not crash and keep taking clomid.

Yeah I had it at my worst. Not completely numb but marked insensitivity. It was also diagnosed by Dr Goldstein (read first page of this thread). It improved after starting thyroid medications, but it’s still present. I just started clomid. I’ll give an update in a couple of weeks.

#54

Don’t get your panties all in a bunch, my message was not critical of his behavior. I understand his need to feel better. I simply asked him the question, because he is more of an intellectual in his approach to dealing with this problem. This doesn’t fit his approach in working with adrenals & thyroid as the culprit to the problem.

#55

Time for an update. I’ve been on clomid for almost a month. At the same time, I’ve continued boosting my metabolic rate by taking 62.5 mcg T4, pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA. Quite a different experience from last time I took clomid (without boosting my metabolic rate).

Although I’m taking a small dose (50 mg a week, in 2 doses), my T has definitely increased. I’ve put on 5 kg of muscle mass in a month without going to the gym! Energy-wise and mentally, I feel awesome. Emotions are back and the world just feels more real. Maybe I’m a little too emotional. I watched “The Help” (great movie btw) and cried like a baby when the protagonist was told that her nanny died… However, I’ve read that some body builders doing a PCT with clomid feel the same. My face is oily and my hair starts falling out, although at a very reduced pace compared to pre-fin (this is likely due to higher progesterone than pre-fin).

My sleep is awesome. I sleep like a baby 8h/night and I have nocturnal erections all night long. And we are not talking about those numb-penis erections I used to have on my previous try of clomid; we are talking about hard rock erections where my penis feels sensitive and full of life, and I want to push it against something – my girlfriend or the mattress. If I fall asleep on the train or on the plane, I have erections. I have some spontaneous erections too, but not very many. Although there have been some improvements, other things did not improve. For example, libido hasn’t changed much. Furthermore, physically stimulated erections are more difficult to keep. The worsening in erections while on clomid was reported also by Dury, who undertook a similar treatment.

I have done a 4x saliva test after 2 weeks on clomid to monitor my cortisol, which came back high in all 4 points (in my last try of clomid, it came back low). I think I’ll decrease my pregnenolone intake. I will keep taking clomid until the beginning of November.

#56

m_81

please keep us updated. this looks promising.

#57

m81 any news?

#58

also, is all this taking place under the care of Dr. Goldstein or someone else?

How long did you have to treat thyroid/adrenals before going on clomid?

#59

After a while on clomid (and pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, and T4), I felt symptoms of high cortisol: high heart rate, never sleepy, shortness of breath when standing, sexual sides etc… It felt like my dosages were not right anymore. I took a blood test to see what was going on. Since I am overseas, I could not take the usual comprehensive test. In particular, I could not test SHBG, RT3, and saliva cortisol.

T 723 (219-905) – clomid did its job, good
E2 53.7 (7.6-42.5) – new record high, bad
Progesterone 3.24 (0.22-1.35) – new record high, bad
FT4 14.3 (8.0-17.0)
FT3 3.33 (2.00-4.00)

Because my progesterone is so high and given the symptoms above, my cortisol is probably damn high too. Dury had a similar experience: while on clomid, he felt he didn’t need T4 anymore and he just stopped it and recovered. However, I should not have high E2 if my metabolic rate (thyroid and cortisol) is high. In other words, at least in theory, my body should not reject higher levels of T in the presence of a high metabolic rate. But it does, and the reason remains a mystery.

After seeing these results, I decided to dramatically cut my intake of pregnenolone and progesterone. My heart rate is better, but I still have troubles sleeping. My energy levels are very good and my mood is excellent. Sexually, my stimulated erections are back to as hard as pre-clomid, but the nocturnal erections are less hard (I have them every night all night long though). My penis is still shrunk during the day (sometimes to extreme levels) and libido is still low, but at a functional level, i.e., pornography causes erections and sexual thoughts cause at least half erection.

I quit Dr Goldstein because he didn’t acknowledge the role of adrenal glands in the symptoms I experienced while on clomid last year, which were clearly adrenal related: brain fog, fatigue, extreme depression, anxiety (even a saliva test that showed low cortisol). I have taken clomid both by itself (last year) and together with the hormones mentioned above. I can tell from experience that taking clomid alone may make you go through hell, while taking it together with other hormones prevents the sides mentioned above. Also Dr Crisler says that it is necessary to address adrenal issues, which may arise while on clomid.

After quitting Goldstein, I went to a local integrative medicine doctor who focuses on adrenal glands and thyroid. He prescribed clomid too.

I didn’t “have to”, but I treated them for 8 months before clomid. I’m not sure you need to treat them for this long. But it’s important you keep a close eye on them while you are on clomid. Treating them before clomid may give you some experience and help you recognize the various symptoms of low cortisol, high cortisol, low thyroid, high thyroid.

#60

Yet we have published research linking Finasteride use to androgen deprivation (loss of androgen = fatigue) and neurocognitive effects (neurosteroid inhibition = cognitive/memory impairment, depression, anxiety).

Just curious but why are you trying to link “adrenals” to these symptoms again? Where is the scientific evidence?