M_81's story: 4 pills in November 2009

Member Stories
#1

I took propecia for 4 days in November 2009 with very limited side effects while on it (no nocturnal erections). I went through a terrible hormonal rollercoaster for months. The trend, though, was downwards.

In March 2010, under dr Goldstein’s supervision, I tried to recover via clomid. Clomid gave me the whole ordeal of mental sides and threw me to a new rollercoaster, where I went from feeling 80% pre-fin to feeling 0% pre-fin.
In August 2010, realizing that my libido was worsening and because of crippling anxiety, I stopped clomid. Within 2 weeks, I had all my energy and cognitive capabilities back, but still sexual sides.

At the end of September 2010, I had an accident which required surgery. The stress on my body triggered a new hormonal crash, similar to the one I got 10 days after stopping fin. At that point, I was at my worst: I had all sexual, mental, and most of the physical sides. But the accident causing the crash made me suspect that my condition can be worsen (or hopefully improved) by acting on non-androgenic hormones.

In January 2011, under the supervision of a new dr (a local alternative medicine doctor), I started a hormonal therapy that aims at increasing the “metabolic rate” (cortisol, T3, and T4).
June 2011: currently, I’m feeling much better than at any post-fin point. I feel great mentally. I have tons of energy. My libido has improved but is still far from normal.

#2
  1. How did you find this forum?
    I looked up “nocturnal erections” + propecia
  2. What is your current age, height, weight?
    28, 176cm (5’9), 62 kg
  3. Do you excercise regularly? If so, what type of excercise?
    Soccer, gym
  4. What type of diet do you eat (vegetarian, meat eater, raw, fast-food/organic healthy)?
    before propecia anything (but generally healthy), now extremely healthy
  5. Why did you take Finasteride (hair loss, BPH, other)?
    hair loss
  6. For how long did you take Finasteride (weeks/months/years)?
    4 days
  7. How old were you when you started Finasteride?
    28
  8. How old were you when you quit?
    28
  9. How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)?
    cold turkey
  10. What type of Finasteride did you use – Propecia, Proscar, Fincar or other generic?
    Propecia
  11. What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?
    1 mg/day
  12. How long into your use of Finasteride did you notice the onset of side effects?
    4th and last day. I noticed lack of nocturnal erections
  13. What side effects did you experience while on the drug that have yet to resolve since discontinuation?
    On the drug, I experienced only lack of nocturnal erections, while afterwards I experienced the following:

Sexual
[X] Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
[X] Erectile Dysfunction
[ ] Complete Impotence
[X] Loss of Morning Erections
[X] Loss of Spontaneous Erections
[X] Loss of Nocturnal Erections
[X] Watery Ejaculate
[X] Reduced Ejaculate
[ ] Inability to Ejaculate / Orgasm
[ ] Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
[ ] Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat
[X] Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating
[X] Confusion
[ ] Memory Loss / Forgetfullness
[X] Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
[X] Slurring of Speech
[X] Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
[ ] Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
[X] Depression / Melancholy

Physical
[ ] Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
[ ] Penis curvature / rotation on axis
[X] Testicular Pain
[X] Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
[ ] Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
[ ] Weight Gain
[ ] Gynecomastia (male breasts)
[ ] Muscle Wastage
[ ] Muscle Weakness
[ ] Joint Pain
[ ] Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
[ ] Prostate pain
[ ] Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion
[ ] Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
[ ] Constipation / “Poo Pellets”
[ ] Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
[ ] Increased hair loss
[ ] Frequent urination
[ ] Lowered body temperature

[ ] Other (please explain)

  1. What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug?
    see 17
  2. If you have pre or post-Finasteride bloodtests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (pls post your test results in the “Blood Tests” section and link to them in your post)?
    see http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3070
  3. Anything not listed in the above questions you’d like to share about your experience with Finasteride?
    Propecia makes fun of human nature itself
  4. Tell us your story, in your own words, about your Finasteride usage and side effects experienced while on/off the drug.

November 2009. The doctor who prescribed me propecia wanted to monitor my hormonal levels, so she made me take a blood test 2 days before propecia. I took propecia for 4 days and stopped because I found this website. The only symptom I had on propecia was lack of nocturnal and spontaneous erections. I had the crash after 6 days, when I suddenly experienced testicular pain, loss of libido, ED, penis shrinkage, reduced ejaculate, slurring over words. I took zinc (50mg + 2mg copper daily), which immediately made me feel way better than before propecia. After 10 days of 150% recovery, I had another crash with the same symptoms as the first one. I took another blood test, which showed that my T had dropped in a month from 544 to 163. My blood tests are posted here: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3070.

I’ve had cycles for the following 4 months (Nov 09 – March 10). In positive cycles I was generally almost normal, where my libido and my erections were fine but the sensitivity of my penis very low in terms of pleasure and, therefore, in time needed to reach the orgasm; in negative cycles my erections were terrible but my sensitivity was normal. In this 4 month period I had a few blood tests, which show a constant increase of SHBG. I want to note that the free testosterone value have always reflected how I was feeling. If, for example, my free T was 60% of my baseline free T, then I was generally feeling about 60% of my old normal self (I can guess the percentage before seeing the result). During this timeframe, I tried broccoli treatment, which I think helped me to keep my estradiol low, and I started taking melatonin because my sleep was getting worse and worse.

March 2010. After this 4 month period, I realized that my T had stabilized at around 420 (it was 544 before fin), whereas my free T was 60% of its original value. Since my problems were purely sexual, and since low T can cause physical problems to the penis, I decided to leave the endo that was following me (an idiot who thought I was taking steroids) and schedule a visit with Dr. Goldstein. A few days before the visit, I experienced other problems for the first time: morning tiredness, mental confusion (racing thoughts), physical fatigue, difficulty to focus, and even difficulty to read. Every time I measured my body temperature, the result was a number uniformly distributed between 36.1C (96.98F) and 36.8C (98.24F), which is weird because my body temperature used to be very steady at 36.5C (97.7F). This clearly pointed to adrenal fatigue. I had my ACTH and cortisol checked:
ACTH: 14 (7-69)
Cortisol, Urine Free CRT: 22.50 (<32)

I met with Dr. Goldstein, who sees finasteride sufferers on a daily basis and argues that finasteride causes a partial androgen insensitivity. Therefore, the natural treatment is having a high T. I’m not quite sure about this theory though, because, as I said, the entity of my problems is proportional to my current free T compared to my baseline free T, which suggests that I am NOT androgen insensitive. Dr. Goldstein does not know how to explain this observation. He says that the androgen insensitivity is just a theory (although the most valid one he knows), and that most of the mechanisms of finasteride have still to be understood. He measured the sensitivity of my penis to heat, cold, and vibrations, which turns out to be very low. No surprise to me, as I’ve been always like that. My ex gf has always made fun of me because I don’t realize if my penis is touching something. According to Dr. Goldstein, this points to neurological damage, which can be addressed my increasing T. How to increase T then? He suggests to use a low dose of Clomid, which makes your brain blind to estrogen, tricking it into thinking that little T is being produced, which makes the pituitary gland release more LH and FSH. The result is therefore increasing the production of T. The initial dose he suggests is 25 mg (half a pill) twice a week. I was too scared though to mess with my hormones, so I insisted to start with the baby-dose of 25 mg a week. I asked him if it is ok to take Clomid if I have adrenal fatigue symptoms and he dismissed my doubt by saying that adrenal fatigue is a modern concept which is not even studied in medicine.

I took the first pill the day of the visit at 6pm. The day after, I felt just great. I woke up with absolutely clear mind, my mood was very positive, and I felt full of energy. Sexually, I had libido and spontaneous erections all day (more than pre-propecia) but, incredibly, the sensitivity of my penis was almost completely gone. It was so bad that I could not tell how hard an erection unless I touched my penis. In general it felt 50% hard, but it was 100%. Also, the pleasurable feeling you get when you just finish peeing was gone. This insensitivity reflects exactly how my good cycles were: mechanically good, but little sensitivity. Does anyone have an idea why high T makes me insensitive? After 6 days (one day before the next half pill), I think that the clomid stopped working. I had a crash with the same symptoms as the one I had 6 days after stopping propecia (testicular pain, ED, etc…). I took the second dose of Clomid and, within 10 hours, all problems were gone. Probably I should take it more often.

April 2010. I am very confident in Clomid, but with a caveat. Yesterday and today I’ve had again adrenal fatigue symptoms. Furthermore, my right kidney (or my right adrenal gland) hurts. Does anyone have any thought about interactions of clomid and adrenal fatigue? Does anybody have any suggestion for me?

#3

Yes, “Adrenal Fatigue” is a dubious “diagnosis” which has yet to even be officially recognized by the medical system, and is often used as a “catch all” for people’s symptoms by those looking to make a profit off you.

mayoclinic.com/health/adrena … ue/AN01583

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_fatigue
ampedtraining.com/exercise-s … k-disease/
quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel … index.html

You are self-diagnosing by believing you even have “adrenal fatigue” in the first place, and I’d trust Dr. G’s opinion on this. Let the doctor make the diagnoses, rather than in your own mind – it’s dangerous.

I’d also follow his instructions and if you keep crashing after a week after 1 pill of clomid, you might want to consider his original prescribing info of 2x a week, as you noted you probably will.

Other than that sounds like you are in good hands.

#4

I took Clomid for a month now (25 mg twice a week). It was certainly effective on me, as it brought my T from 424 to 1024 (300-1080). See my results below. Note that this blood test have been taken right before a dose of clomid, so it should represent a pretty low point. In this month, I’ve taken 10,000 IU vitamin D, 50 mg zinc, 2 mg copper daily. Now I have borderline high T, DHT, and E2, but still have symptoms.

Symptoms that have improved:
My sensitivity is back to normal now (except the week after starting clomid, when it was mysteriously gone away)
Energy and mood are great
My skin became oily as it was and I got some acne back
My penis size increased (it’s actually always pretty big now, like almost half hard)
Semen is more and ejaculation stronger

Symtoms that got worse:
Libido/erections. I’ve had cycles of 8-10 days each this month: in good cycles I have good erections and libido (almost as much as pre-fin), in bad cycles I have no libido and I can’t get erections, to the point that I masturbated more than once with a flaccid penis!! This never happened to me, not even when I had hypogonadal T levels back in December 2009!!
Except for 10 days after starting clomid, my hair falls out at a lower pace than before clomid (which is 50% of the pace pre-fin)

What can cause my libido and erections to be so bad (although intermittently), despite my hormonal levels? It can’t be E2 I think, because DHT is really high too. I’m scared and worried because this is the first blood test where my free T does not reflect how I feel. So I’m not quite sure if clomid is a good idea at this point… Please, someone comment on my situation. I will talk to Goldstein in 3 days and I will discuss my results with him.

PS: I also have bioavailable T = 554 (131-682)

#5

Get these tests done as well

Cortisol

TSH
T3
T3 Uptake
T4

Need to check for hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism. Cytomel or Armour Thyroid is used for treatment if you are hypo or hyper i believe.

This could affect you greatly as well.

I’m gonna ask to get those tests done next because i have a similiar hormone profile as you, but still have problems.

Btw, your estradial is a bit on the normal-high side. Ask about taking .25 mg of Arimidex 2x a week to see if that will help drop it…Careful on the usage, the side effects can be brutal.

#6

I’d guess your E2 needs to be brought down, low dose Arimidex may help. What did Dr. G say?

#7

annon1, thanks for the suggestion. Actually I’ve done some of those tests too:

TSH: 1.03 (0.50-5.0) – done last week
T4: 1.3 (0.75-1.54) – done a month ago
LACTH - ACTH Plasma: 14 (7-69) – done a month ago, I was super fatigued/brain fogged the day I had this one measured
Cortisol: I checked it too a month ago with a 24h urine test. I don’t understand my results very well, so let me report exactly what they say. I think it’s ok though

Cortisol, Urine Free - ug/L 18.00
Cortisol, Urine Free - ug/g CRT 22.50
Male 18 years and older: Less than 32 ug/g crt
Cortisol, Urine Free - ug/d 40.5 (<=60.0)
Creatinine, Urine - mg/dL 80 (no range here)
Creatinine, Urine - mg/day 1800 (1000-2500)

Mew, I will talk to him on Monday.

Does anyone have any idea of why I have these weird cycles? Before taking clomid, I thought they were driven by fluctuations of T, but I believe that my T is relatively stable on clomid. In fact, it feels like my receptors send the right signal only half of the time; the other half they send the wrong signal which makes me feel bad. Note that this is different from being insensitive, but it seems to be the only explanation of how I feel. It would also explain my temporary drop of penile sensitivity I got 12 hours after the first dose of clomid. If I were simply insensitive, I wouldn’t have had any effect, no?

#8

TSH looks good…

Penile Insensitivy could be because of your E2. High estrogen bounds to testestorone receptors and can affect your results.

Ask your doctor about arimidex.

#9

I just spoke to Dr Goldstein. He said that he has rarely seen such a huge effect of clomid, and that my hormonal profile simply looks great now. This is a good sign and he is very confident in a recovery. He said that E2 is a little high but he would not suggest Arimidex at this stage. He added that the erection problems are most likely due to blood flow issues, such as in the case of Xhorndog (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3180&highlight=), who is his patient too. These blood flow issues may be caused by the prolonged lack of testosterone post-fin.

Now, the plan is to continue taking clomid at a lower pace (25 mg every 5 days) for 6 months total (until the end of September 2010), and then discontinue and see if the T stays high. I’ll take the next blood test at the beginning of June.

#10

l-arginine and pycnogonal should help with blood flow - both relatively safe - if that is the only remaining issue.

#11

Also consider Horny Goat Weed (herbal viagra) to aid bloodflow. Studies in Natural Supplement section sticky post.

#12

I posted new blood results in my blood tests’ page: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3070&start=20. I will post the future ones there too and I’ll use this page for major updates on my situation.

#13

m81, whats your T3 Free Uptake and T3 total levels?

#14

I haven’t been tested for those (only T4, see few posts above). Are they very important? What are they exactly?

#15

T4 converts to T3 which is 5x more active in your cells.

My T4 is in mid range normal, but my T3 is low normal…That’s why I was asking…

#16

Wow. I just read this story and it’s another that sounds so similar to the situation I’m in, almost identical and it’s scared the shit out of me. The good news is I may be in the UK and unable to see goldstein but I can buy clomid easily. Is there any risks with using clomid?

#17

I don’t know. From the stories on this board it seems that some people improve or recover while others get worse. Apparently Goldstein gives clomid to most of his propecia patients and he says that they all feel better at the end of the treatment – note that many people see improvements only after stopping clomid.

#18

M_81, are you feeling any better? Are you still on clomid?

#19

After 4 months of clomid (25 mg every 5 days), some aspects have improved, some have got worse, some are cycling.

Improvements:
-ejaculate is thicker. Strength and quantity have also improved similar to pre-fin levels (although I have had a few bad days)
-penis is bigger. My flaccid penis is now always big. Some days it is still super soft like jelly, but these days are now very few.
-nocturnal/morning/spontaneous erections are more frequent. Especially nocturnal erections are almost always there (80% pre-fin levels). I also have more spontaneous erections during the day (40% pre-fin levels)
-facial hair grows super fast. Waaaaay faster than pre-fin

Unfortunately many things got worse, especially from the mental side:
-anxiety. After 2 months on clomid, I started experiencing anxiety, which I had never had before. Interestingly, this is a listed side effect of clomid – even if I think it was seen on women, so I don’t know if it applies to men. To counteract this, I’ve been taking gaba supplements, l-theanine, and natra sleep (from GNC), with moderate effects. I’ve also taken a saliva cortisol test, which showed that my cortisol is lowish. My Dr said that too much progesterone gets converted to testosterone and too little to cortisol. So, he prescribed me some topical pregnenolone to take before sleep. After 20 days of pregnenolone, I can say that it helped my anxiety, even if not completely.
-emotions. I now feel incapable of feeling positive emotions, or pleasures (eating, music, etc…). So, I started taking L-tyrosine to increase my dopamine, which is working quite well (I’ve used it for a month now, 2g/day). Its only side effect is an increased anxiety, so I had to take more gaba supplements.
-desires. This is a weird one. I do not feel any desire. It’s like the verb “to crave” has been removed from my dictionary. I don’t crave food, drinks, drugs, sex (obviously). The weird thing is that L-tyrosine allows me to have pleasure from these things, but it doesn’t give me the drive to actually seek them. For example, if I eat good food, I get pleasure from it, but I feel I could eat bread and water for 1 year without craving anything else. I think that this is probably due to depression.

Many things are still cycling:
-erections during masturbation. I had never got completely soft during masturbation, not even when my T was in the 100s. On clomid, sometimes I sadly do…
-libido This comes and goes.

One encouraging thing is that I’ve had two 10-days periods a couple of months ago when I felt 90% under all points of view. One negative and scary thing is that I feel that many improvements are getting worse lately.

#20

m-81 are u still on clomid? or u stopped? how long have you been off if stopped?

thanx

sps