Lycopene made all my PFS issues MUCH worse.

Therapeutic Efforts Supplements & Lifestyle
#1

I was at the organic market and I saw a new fruit. It was a gac fruit. I had only had this in a juice a year ago or so in small quantities.

Anyway I thought I would give it a try. So I bought it and opened it up. Surrounding the seeds is a slimy layer that is a very deep rich red like blood. I knew Gac was very high in lycopene so I thought it would be good for me. Anyway I ate it and all seemed to be ok for then. This was about 4 in the afternoon. I went to bed early and the next day I woke up running to the toilet which is one of my symptoms of PFS. But I felt like a dead man! I felt terrible. I went back to bed and slept another 3 hours. I never sleep this long. 8.5 hours is normal for me and I wake up automatically after this amount of sleep. Anyway this night I had slept about 10.5 hours got up and felt like total crap! No appetite at all and I was noticing lots of pain in my nipples which I have never really had during my 5 years with PFS. I did have it a couple times actually but that was when taking anti estrogens.

So the whole day I could eat almost nothing. PFS has caused my appetite to decrease a lot but this day it was terrible! All day I could only eat about 500 calories and that was pushing it. I felt nausea all day. Anyway I though I should try and drink a coconut so I went to the store and purchased one. While waiting in line I had one of the worst panic attacks I have ever had since I got PFS.

My mood was terrible thoughts of suicide were filling my head. I felt that I was on deaths door and a small wind would cause me to fall over and die. I thought I may not make it to see tomorrow. I started packing my bags and filling boxes thinking I have to return to my home country as I am getting worse and who knows what would happen in the next few days. I was also doing this to keep my mind from thinking of negative things. Anyway I went to bed and woke up this morning feeling the testosterone back in my veigns I felt more refreshed upon waking - still not very good compared to the old days. But 100 times better than the day before.

Anyway it got me thinking. Why had I suddenly got so much worse? The only thing I had changed was eating this Gag fruit.

I found the answer today :

The baseline and final concentrations of serum free testosterone, SHBG and total estradiol for the four groups are displayed in Table 3. At the 30 mg lycopene dose level, a moderate decrease in mean free testosterone and a significant increase in mean plasma estradiol (Fig. 2) was observed [24.90 (+/−7.94) to 32.30 (+/−7.93), P = 0.02]. In addition, significant increase in serum SHBG [39.31 (+/−16.04) to 45.67 (+/−19.83), P = 0.022] (Fig. 3) and total estradiol [27.54 pmol/L (SD 7.82) to 37.64 pmol/L (SD12.65) [P = 0.006] was observed in the 45 mg/day lycopene supplemented group with no significant change in serum testosterone (Fig. 4). However, serum testosterone and SHBG levels in the control group remained unchanged.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … po=38.8889

This was a very frightening experience but it has given me some more crritical info on what causes PFS which correlates with all my findings to date. That is for me at least the Free testosterone to Free estrogen ratio is the prime cause of ALL my symptoms. Total estrogen also is a cause as if this goes too high no amount of free test will fix this.

I have experimented with soy for the same reasons and I get the same results. My PFS gets WAY worse.

The only time I have reversed my PFS is by decreasing estrogen but I am unable to do this in a stable manner.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I can double free T and lower e2 by about 30 percent I will be cured.

1 Like
#2

Lycopene is a 5 Alpha Reductase Inhibitor, once I had an immediate crash after taking it as a supplement. But I didn’t have such a crash by eating a few cooked tomatoes.

Good luck with reestablishing a good Testosterone to Estradiol ratio, However, if you read this forum, good hormonal levels are a necessary, but not sufficient requirement to get out of PFS . There are many people with normal hormonal levels that still suffer from PFS.

1 Like
#3

No that is a myth. The vast majority of people here have obviously messed up hormones.

I can fix all my problems by hormonal manipulation just not in a stable manner.

All my symptoms can be directly attributed to my hormonal levels.

And most here inhibited there dht for weeks / months / years with little to no noticeable symptoms.

Inhibition of 5ar by itself does not result in PFS, if it did we would have had the PFS crash after our first pill or two.

I know of some that went back on finasteride after they got PFS it did not make much of a difference to their symptoms after the crash.

Boosting DHT with proviron or other DHT derivitives does little and our symptoms are not related to low DHT by itself.

Taking high dose TRT I grow new hair like gorilla and hair falls of my head at a fast rate. On fin I grew new hair at my temples. Since I had PFS I have not grew any new hair like I did when actively inhibiting 5ar.

Inhibition of DHT is not causing the sides I am experiencing plain and simple.

#4

There are many that have taken finasteride, lowered their DHT and retained or grew new hair for years with little or no sides. My friend’s friend just came of after 12 years. No problems with him. We can obviously come to the conclusion that blocking 5ar itself is not responsible for PFS symptoms but it did result in some kind of damage which DID result indirectly to a PFS crash.

#5

My hormones all came back normal except for Cortisol. I think many people here also have hormones in normal range.

#6

Do you really think its that easy ?

#7

Well I have recovered all of my problems and can do it over and over. The problem is it is hard to make stable. And when it is worse it makes me feel really crap like my experience with lycopene.

Basically what I need to do. I do a blood test when I make myself feel good and one when I am bad.

But simply injecting testosterone makes me feel GREAT and gives me a wood in 30 minutes and massively increases my appetite. The problem is those effects do not last. My tests show that after a week on low dose T my free e2 and e3 go over range. This explains why I have very low free T and low LH. Because if my body bumps up the T production I will just end up with e2 and e3 over the range and I will feel worse.

Obviously anti estrogens can not reduce your estrogen all over your body in an even manner so they are unlikely to result in a 100 percent perfect FIX because your brain estrogens may go too low while your serum is in a good range.

But anyway I have fixed all problems a number of times. And can do it over and over. It could be a metabolite issue further down the line from e1,e2,e3. Do not know much about that.

#8

And I think it is very hard / impossible with our condition to get free T and free E at stable / good levels. Why? I am not sure that could tell us where the root cause is.

#9

Mark

I VERY MUCH DOUBT your hormones are normal if your cortisol is out of range. Give me a link to your results.

Also normal does not mean shit. You could have free T bottom of the range and E top of the range AND YOU WILL FEEL LIKE CRAP.

#10

Well thats what the doctors tell me.

Ill try and get a copy of my most recent blood test and post it here.

#11

Have you tried smaller doses of anti-estrogens vincent?

What are the main determinants of Free Testosterone? My Total is good, but Free is absymal;

Total Testosterone (08/2013) - 33.9 nmol [ref. range; 8.8 - 36.7]
Estradiol - <50 pmol [ref. range <150 pmol]
Free Testosterone - 5.55 pg/ml - [ref. range; 8.8 - 27]
SHBG - 77 nmol - [ref. range; 20 - 60]
25 OH Vitamin D - 55 nmol/L - [reference range 50 - 200]
Folate (serum - 15.1 ug/L - [reference range 4.6 - 18.7]
Thyriod Stimulating Hormone - 1.55 mIU/L - [reference range 0.27 - 4.2]
Free Thyroxine - 16.7 pmol/l - [reference range 12 - 22]
Free T3 3.2 pmol/L - [reference range 3.1 - 6.8]
Follicle Stim. Hormone 5.1 IU/L - [reference range 1.5 - 12.4]
Luteinising Hormone - 2.6 IU/L - [reference range 1.7 - 8.6]
Prolactin - 117 mIU/L - [reference range 86 - 324]
Growth Hormone - 0.6 ug/L - [reference range 0 - 0.8]
Vitamin B12 - 71.6 pmol/L - [reference range 25.1 - 165]

I’ve tried lowering SHBG using DIM, Boron, Divanil and Proviron but haven’t had any effect.

#12

Mark2012 : Do not trust the doctors.

dannyfc : Your SHBG is SKY High. Mine is 55 and I thought that was high.

There are 2 things which are known to increase SHBG - Estrogens and thyroid hormones.

It is very strange that your estradiol is so low while SHBG is so HIGH? Have you tested it more than once.

In some books I have read doctors look at SHBG to get an idea of estradiol levels. High means too much estradiol.

You will find there are some studies on estradiol administration causing a decrease in free T but little change in total T.

I suggest you test all estradiol metabolites e1,e2 and e3. Can you do that?

Your free test is very low. Lower than mine. How do you feel?

#13

I’m getting Estrogen, Estradiol and Progesterone tested again tomorrow morning. Should have results later that day.

I feel as you’d expect tbh, all the symptoms of low testosterone. Absence of libido, drive, energy. If my Estrogen comes back high I’ll experiment with small amounts of Aromasin or Letrozole to see where it gets me.

#14

You need to test e1,e2,e3 your shbg is way too high and as far as I know the 2 main things that cause this are excess thyroid hormones or excess estrogens. Possibly liver damage from drinking can cause this too. As for any other cause I am not sure.

Aromosin would be worth a try.

I think letrozole seems to be too strong. You could try soemthing like PES erase. It is much weaker.

#15

Interesting, from the little I read I thought Letrozole was reversible and Aromasin wasn’t?

My doctor originally theorised that my high SHBG was a consequence of my testosterone being low, now it’s in the higher range he has no explanation. Estradiol test came back low and that was that, case closed. Hopefully todays results will be more enlightening.

#16

If your estradiol is really very low then AIS are probaly going to make you feel worse. But the very high SHBG needs to be explained.

#17

Could only get Estradiol tested in regards to E1, E2 etc.

Results;

Progesterone 11.4 nmol/L [range 0.7-4.3]
Oestradiol 88 pmol/l [range 28-156]

Estradiol is within range but within context I imagine that’s fairly high for a male? Progesterone is as it is from using the cream people on here recommended, teaches me for fucking around with hormones I shouldn’t be. Hopefully that’ll come back down naturally…

edit; after further reading that Estradiol figure seems pretty standard.

Just need to get my SHBG down. Doubt it’ll cure my symptoms but thats the only physiological problem I can deal with. May try a couple high doses of Proviron. <25mg hasn’t had any effect so far. Apparently it doesn’t cause shutdown in doses less than 100mg, so I’ll give 75mg a go.

#18

progesterone cream is poison,it screwed me right up,mentally and physically,id advise anyone to keep well away from it…

#19

tbf it’s not had any tangible effect on me, but obviously that isn’t a healthy figure and best avoided.

#20

Dannyfc :

Free Testosterone - 5.55 pg/ml - [ref. range; 8.8 - 27]
Oestradiol 88 pmol/l [range 28-156]

To me this is a massive problem and explains your situation very well.

Your body has increased SHBG massively. It usually does this to decrease estrogen. That is why estrogen is the main stimulator of SHBG.

So your body has gone to huge attempts to reduce your estrogen. It has decreased free T to extremely low levels in order to get estrogen to an acceptable range.

When you have very low free T you should have very low estrogen. Because estrogen is created from free T. So now you have extremely low free T and mid level E.

This is concerning and I would guess this is the cause of most/all of your symptoms.

We know estrogen is a very suppressive hormone on LH and we know that in normal men slightly high estrogen levels can render all the affects of testosterone useless. So I would be looking into that.

But from your tests it seems your body is creating estrogen like crazy. Your body has tried to stop the estrogen by reducing free T but your estrogens still remain mid range.

Who knows exactly exactly what level of e your body is able to tolerate perhaps before fin your estrogen was around the same but your free T was probably somewhere in the range.

How long ago did you take the progesterone?

Of course I do not have an explanation for why your free T to E ratio is so messed up. I do not know the root cause for that but we need to investigate. I would say best areas to look would be adrenals, testicles and any other hormone producing tissue. Did you get any pain in these areas?