Literature search

General Discussion
#1

Hi all

I am currently going through systematically the medical literature - going over the hormonal, epigenetic, immunological and neurogenic aspects of our syndrome. I am also covering as many of our improvements with medication as possible and finding appropriate reasons why. For those who know my posting i support all points of view if they have logic or real life results attached. I grow tired of the bickering between the various camps of thought and feel we need to make headway together. There are many ideas involving epigenetics, the prostate, neurogenic inflammation, autoimmune and even the leaky gut syndrome. My intent with this writing when finished is not to have the overall answer by any means but to show everyone where we are up to, why things have potentially helped or not and to show which avenues are worth further exploration. Some of these “theories” bear more credence than others and I will show the scientific evidence for them.

I will end it with a proposal of the overall problem. This will be left open for open and rational discussion.

If anyone would like to help me I would be grateful.

I will only accept documented medical literature or your own experiences. Please tell me what you think has helped you and what has made you worse.

Thank you

19

#2

And this line of thinking is the reason why this problem has been going on for so long. It’s also why doctors continue to prescribe this drug without any warning and why doctors don’t believe us. Mew’s website isn’t “documented medical literature” but it’s the best place to go for learning about propecia “side effects”

propeciahelp.com/symptoms

I don’t believe any paper comes close to explaining the problem, which is why we’ve got into so many arguments with doctors. As sufferers, we all need to do our part to make sure this disease gets documented. My two cents.

The only thing that has helped me is exercise.

#3

Firstly the FDA have changed their warnings about the drug. Change is happening albeit slowly.
Secondly i said your personal experiences would be considered important.

We can’t rely on bad science to find solutions to our problem. I know many of us show resentment to the medical profession due to their inability to do anything. But ultimately we must be proactive by either gathering information or getting the important researchers on board. The reason I wish to write this lit review is that I intend to treat myself in accordance with its findings.

I agree there is no paper that explains our syndrome. But there are many papers that study all the potential players in our syndrome.

#4

And they intentionally used vague and non-descript language. Then they went on to say that finasteride is safe alluded that people reporting the side effects might just want to blame their problems on finasteride. They even admitted they threw out a good portion of the reports because they weren’t within three months of discontinuing the medication.

I’m done searching through the literature because I know “sex hormone receptor downregulation syndrome” (what I call this disease) has yet to be described.

#5

OK if you don’t want to help thats fine. thanks.

#6

Rubbish you make it up as you go along.

Ive had to correct you on a number of occassions when you have simply pretended a research paper supports your strange statements.

And if you want to find out about peoples experiences, why not, erm… read the forum?

#7

Just read it when its done and criticise it then. I appreciate your comments Oscar but i do not appreciate your tone. Many people feel the same. You have no excuses for your behaviour. With this in mind I will only reply to you when you show some manners. I’m open to criticism but it goes two ways. I have pointed out your mistakes in the past too.

The negativity on this forum is getting ridiculous. I have had many pms from people who no longer wish to post on this forum due to feeling like they are being attacked and ridiculed when they simply wish to post their experiences. Even awor doesn’t wish to post due to amount of backlash he gets.

Its sad that the people who want to help get abused this way. Even Mew who created this forum puts up with a lot.

There is nothing wrong with professional criticism and feedback but personal attacks and negativity achieve nothing.

#8

19, as you claim to be a medical student/NHS doctor you will have full, free, instantaneous access to all medical research papers on the net and even some that arent. As well as other medical texts. So theres no reason to quote from abstracts ever again. Please remember that for the future to prevent further confusion.

#9

amazon.com/Anabolic-Steroids-Question-Subject-Research/dp/096622311X

good book.

The other thinks I know are in German

#10

I find it very sad myself. I’m starting to wonder if one of the symptoms is being critical of others. I really don’t get why the tone is so often so negative. I am grateful to Mew, Awor and the others.

Thank you for your hard work and good luck 19.
chris (tlecum)

#11

I can understand it somehow. Beening negativ is part of depression so many lost their hope.

#12

You may find some interesting tidbits that may lead you off in some different directions as far as causation for the disease. I remember during the first 7 or 8 months I became relentless and would do google searches for things involving 5AR2, androgen receptors, enzyme up regulaton, potential cures, anything and everything that could possible be related to our condition. The end result is that while I learned an immense amount about male endocrinology I found nothing that could be sure to cure us. A few potential fixes that might help but are dangerous and or illegal and general lack of understanding by the medical scientific community about how the various derivitive hormones work in the human body.

#13

…go on, may be you will find something new!
@Broken Pecker… ok shal he stop? shall we lay down and say things u said?

There are many new ways! SARM´s and things like genedoping!
What is, when realy some AR are defekt because of fin? What is when fin inhibits the AR. Who says the AR is than also irreversible inhibit? 5AR2 and a AR are totaly differnet. What is, if there is a stuff, that have such a hig affinity to fin, that might drag it outof the AR. As you read. the expression of a AR depends on Androgens. E2 will knockdown the cellgrow.
the more people are looking for a cure the better! I dont wanna sit in my room and cry!

#14

I never said he shouldn’t do it. Just providing a realistic look at what he is going to find.

I really don’t understand what your trying to say. Yes we all know that the “androgen receptor” (AR) is different from “5-Alpha Reductase Type 2” (5AR2). I don’t know, maybe its your english.

#15

@ Broken, Ok sorry it´s may be my english.

I try again. I mean:

If Fin inhibits our AR somehow. It is not sure, that he does it irreversible. know what i mean?
The struckture on the AR is totaly different to the struckture of the enzym. So, also were it binds. We know fin is a competiv inhibitor, that means he binds on the same place on the enzym, where T binds. That does not mean it bind even on the same place on the AR. So, this means it is not for sure, that he inhibts also the AR irreveresible.
But what might happen is a up-regulation of the AR. It´s impossible, that fin chances the AR gen.
But there are many open questions.

#16

So far I’ve been compiling and compiling various articles from journals. If you want the list pm me.

I’m learning an awful lot and it is fair to say things are extremely complicated. The more I read the more I think Awor is correct. I, for a long time took issue with his idea on the grounds of the presence of prostate issues but the more I read the more it made sense.

Overall it seems there are 4 issues:

  1. AR hypersensitivity - due to acetylation, methylation?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10084600 - methylation?
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855091 - acetylation?

The reasoning is that when we take finasteride we reduce androgens greatly as DHT is far more potent than testosterone. So when we stop, we crash as the surge of DHT takes our bodies by surprise leading to the next step… I know my story fits in with this.

  1. Downregulated and altered AR signal - due to methylation??? - locating which part or parts here is crucial. There are many co-regulators of the AR. ARA 70 is one and is the one thyroxine helps regulate. Some are involved in the previous step too.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17364555

It also should be noted that it is unlikely every tissue in the body has reacted the same way. The places where finasteride affected most will be most affected.

  1. An altered estrogen/testosterone ratio either due to the initial drop in DHT or the tissue specific insensitivity to androgens- inducing a form of prostatitis (in some of us). This has immune and neurogenic elements. Some people have been diagnosed with a pudendal neuropathy. Estrogen induced prostatitis is not immediately “fixed” by reducing estrogen.

  2. This inflammatory state can perpetuate the AR hypersensitivity and therefore potentially the downregulated signal and the altered ratio. I know some people have taken contention with this statement. So here is article about how TNF alpha (an inflammatory cytokine) affects AR sensitivity and one about how IL 6 (interleukin 6) affects AR activity:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11241555
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12431817

Now i don’t think we all have 3) and 4) as some people don’t have prostate issues and don’t display an inflammatory element.
The brain fog elements can be explained by the effect on neurosteroids. But the improvements some people have had with anti-inflammatories and antibiotics give some credence to this.

Now let us assume for a moment what i have said is true. A problem arises. Which part is the most important to treat? Are we still hypersensitive? Or just suffering from the persistent down regulated signal? I suppose this can be answered by your own experience with testosterone supplementation. Do you get worse with androgen supplementation from an androgen perspective? Some people with only minor epigenetic changes (so receptor is no longer hypersensitive) might in fact benefit from androgen supplementation as it will drive their system. One simple test is to see how you respond to creatinine.

Assuming this is true (and it is possible it is not) how would we treat this? All these elements are modifiable.

  1. Reduce inflammation - this i don’t think this is a cure but might provide an environment that might sort itself out. Fasting, a good diet etc…

  2. Find out where the silenced or altered co-regulators are. This is hopefully what research will tell us.

  3. Treat methylation or acetylation accordingly. It might be we all have silenced the signal in slightly different ways. T3 might help due to its effects on a different co-regulator (but becoming hyperthyroid will not be beneficial). Xyrem is a HDAC inhibitor and can explain ithappens success on it:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19427877

Awor when he tried procaine - a demethylating agent improved at first in every domain. It didn’t stick however but it pointed in this direction. There is a problem in being unspecific with the treatment as you might awaken one aspect but silence another.

Research is the key.

19

Below is a list of recoveries so far:

mrmoskowitz – time – 4.5 years
ithappens – ghb dhea cream
Scaredin MD - Complete ED, no libido, brain fog, anxiety attacks - Hdrol and reboot with Blue Up and estrogen blocker
Searchfhealth – 7 yrs – recovered – just happened
Japanther – brainfog - rawfood diet
Mitch – brain fog, sexual symptoms, - 9yrs later - He did try but not at the time of recovery - Armour thyroid, exercise, liver detox, no soy or sugar, no caffeine, adrenal support (isocort) – did try TRT for short period but did not help
Oneday - Sustain Alpha, paravol
Cytochorme – recovered once and then re took drug - Dexamethasone, Herbs – mucuna pruriens, stacker T, Creatine Monohydrate
Dury – low energy, sexual symptoms, visual issues, dry skin, klonopin and Oxycodone (5mg) then synthyroid
Big Softie – time + dermacrine sustain, sleep well, no caffeine, alcohol, small meals - no perineal problems – low Testosteorne – boosted + creatinine with test (diesel 2040)
Hopingformore – high dose tribulus 5 days.
Time – 3.5yrs recovered
tryingnottoworry - recovered on dolichol via spinach ingestion - back to normal

#17

So you think an ‘inflammatory state’ (whatever that is) can perpetuate a hypersensitivy of the AR? Well guess what? Thats the EXACT OPPOSITE of what happens.

And how the hell does this cause ‘downregulated signal’? You have 0 evidence about that, so what a pathetic argument. Almost as if you have 0 understanding of the issues that need explaining.

The ONLY thing you need to find is how the signal becomes downregulated, or evidence of this ever being documented before (post -pre - receptor etc).

Thanks for all your help anyway!

(p.s. Rememeber ‘Doctor’ no need to only post abstracts).

#18

Obviously you haven’t got a clue what I’ve been saying.

You can go to hell Oscar. I have worked my ass of these last 6 years to get through medical school and now i have finished my degree. What the hell of you done in life apart from moan at people? The AR hypersensitivity argument is the same theory as awors. Awors theory attracted the attention of the people carrying the research so if its bullshit its all bullshit.

As for the inflammation?

Do you even know what IL-6 is?
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12431817

If you actually for one minute stop thinking you’re “mr i know it all” you’d realise just what a twit you are. The reason i post the abstracts is coz people like you can’t read the full article so will question every little thing i say as you have done in the past.

I don’t have to answer to you. But i know what you’re like and i’m sure now you’re thinking of some harsh retort to try and bolster your own pathetic little ego. Perhaps you’ll accuse me of working for Merck or letsallcureinflammation.com and so if that gives you the only semi you can have anymore then go ahead. Spread your lame useless vibe. I won’t respond. Not because you’re right but because i know you need to feel like you’re right. You can have the final word.

I’m sure they will be a revelation.

#19

Read between the lines dummy. I dont think your a doctor! I think your fantasist!.

If you where a med student/doctor you would have access to vast libraries of text books and all the published studies on cytokines. So why dont you use your access to that information?

In fact someone who has just finished finals could easily gain a complete up-to-date understanding of the subject and write about it in a distinctive, educated, essay style. You have a clumsy internet-educated way of getting your point accross which is painfully obvious to me when I read your posts.

I doubt you have any University education at all.

#20

how do you know oneday recovered. I had had long PM exchange with him even after he had posting here. HE used HCG but never recovered maybe got better a little bit. we don’t know for sure.