Jayv's T levels pre and post FIN.

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#1

Hi guys,

I joined the forum at the end of December 2010. But I was truthfully in denial about my symptoms at that time and I stopped doing research because I was getting very depressed! It’s been 5 months since I started experiencing the symptoms and things have not improved!

Here is my initial post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4647

I still have erectile difficulties (My erection is at 65%, and there has been no change since I started experiencing the symptoms in November). I still have watery semen, loss of morning, spontaneous and nocturnal erections. I also still have watery/reduced ejaculate.

I was fortunate enough to do a baseline of free T and total T before before my final bout of FIN, that caused the symptoms. I did the same tests again, a few weeks after I began to experience the symptoms. My baseline was in May 2010 and the follow up was in mid November 2010. I took FIN for one week, during the 1st week of September 2010. The tests were conducted at 9 in the morning.

Free T levels = 14.4 pg/ml in May to 10 pg/ml (9-26 is normal) in November

Total T = 15 nmol/L in May to 12 nmol/L (9-27 is normal) in November
= 432.64 ng/dl to 346.11 ng/dl, when converted to ng/dl.

I’ve completed more tests looking at a number of other recommended hormones and I am waiting for the results.

My doctor says I am normal and there is nothing to worry about. Please tell me what you all think of these numbers!

#2

not sure if im reading this right, but it looks liek you had low T before hand to if it was in the 400’s?

here’s a chart that shows T levels by age:

mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html

#3

The levels indicated in the chart do not mean much. We are all very different from each others, which means that everybody has very different T levels. For example, I had 550 2 days before starting fin, which is in the lower third of the range, and was horny like a dog. Your levels look a little low but they are not too bad. Nevertheless, you probably feel worse than your levels suggest because of:
-Estradiol (must be low)
-Prolactin (must be low)

Since you do not have any symptom of downregulated cortisol production line (eg fatigue, anxiety, insomnia, racing heart, etc…), I assume that your thyroid and cortisol hormones are in check. Therefore, the problem should lie in one of the two hormones above.

#4

it shouldn’t be ruled out. this guy: medical-library.net/reverse_t3_dominance_syndrome.html says that sexual side effects can happen with a lot of RT3, which can be directly caused by a cortisol production line issue.

i personally don’t get many panic attacks or anxiety… but i think it depends on people’s lifestyles more. i meditate and try to socialize as much as i can and it keeps my stres level balanced. i have had panic attacks in the past… but not as much. i hardly didn’t have any until i found this site and started panicing about it tbh.

and i have too much RT3 in my body currently… not sure if it is cortisol related or not though.

#5

Hi all,

I managed to get an expedited appointment with an endocrinologist for May 12th at 4:00pm ET. Can you please give your take on what the issue is, based on my labs, please?

Here is my initial post, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4647 , I continue to experience all of the symptoms I listed there.

Free T (Dec/10) = 35.6 PMOL/L (15.6 - 146)
When converted to pg/ml = 10 pg/ml (9-26)

Total T (Dec/10) = 12 NMOL/L (9-27)
When converted to ng/dl = 346.11 ng/dl

Serum LH (Mar/11) = 3.6 IU/L (1.2-8.6)

Serum FSH (Mar/11) = 2.8 IU/L (1.3-19.3)

Estradiol (Mar/11) = 88 PMOL/L (0-172)

Thank you so much.

JayV

#6

Your Total and Free Testosterone levels are clearly low, almost borderline hypogonadal for a man 24 years old.

See: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1954

The question is, WHY. You might ask your endo for an LHRH stimulation test (Luetinising Hormone Releasing Hormone) to determine if the problem lies at the pituitary (secondary hypogonadism) or hypothalamus not sending GnRH to the pituitary (tertiary hypogonadism, ie hypothalamus not producing/sending enough GnRH to the pituitary, to tell it to release LH/FSH to testes to produce more Testosterone).

Your LH/FSH levels aren’t out of range low but if you get an LRH test it will help differentiate or rule out a pituitary problem. Most likely however the endo will probably say your results are in range (even though your T levels are low) and therefore there is no problem. You should consider bringing Dr. Irwig’s and Traish’s papers with you as well.

Other tests to get include 3-adiol G, TSH, DHT, Prolactin and SHBG.

#7

Thanks Mew. I really appreciate your input.

#8

I actually also have my TSH, Free T4 and Free T3. Can you please also consider these results?

TSH (Feb, 2011) = 1.74 MU/L (0.30-5.60)

Free T4 (Feb, 2011) = 11.0 PMOL/L (7.2-21.0)

Free T3 (Feb, 2011) = 4.1 PMOL/L (3.8-6.0)

Thanks in advance,

JayV

#9

Mew I don’t think problem is in hypothalamus. I remember you once cited case of a user (Chris11 or something like that) who was diagnosed as tertiary hypogonadal but if you view his later posts he had got back his LH and FSH but had not recovered though. Further if LH and FSH are the cause then why Awor ,Whalen72 and few other are suffering who were already on TRT before starting fin.

#10

Hi,

May I join here ?

I just had a LHRH test ordered by my endo (I went to see him with that result, LH : 2 mUI/mL (man : 1.3 / 10), you can check the rest here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4971 )

my LH was higher when I got tested (6 mUI/mL) but the LHRH test showed a weak response to the stimulation (jumped at 14 at 30min then felt to 10.3 at 120 min, which my endo considered as far too weak).

Then he prescribed me monthly injections of testosterone (my free T is very low, too), after an RMI yesterday which showed no problem.

So I don’t know if people here have had the same profile.
I consulted 3 months ago because I started to feel really concerned about lack of libido, but it’s 5 years after quitting fin. Since then, I had been OK, with less sex drive than before ever taking fin, but I could deal with it without worrying too much.

I have no idea either that pituitary problem is a consequence of taking fin, or if it just worstens the landscape.
With all I read on this site, I’m also afraid taking the injections might not help me and even worsten the symptoms.
Mew, you mentionned the LHRH test, do you have an opinion on that ? I feel once the pituitary response is identified as the problem’s source, there is not a lot to do to go further and see what caused that, and how you can cure that (apart from the suppletive injections of testo).

Thanks for your advices !

#11

Hi guys,

I don’t post much but I regularly ready all the posts. I still continue to experience pretty severe ED and I’ve had some penile shrinkage. I’ve tried supplements/exercise etc. over the last little while, to no success at all.

I also saw an Andrologist/Endo, who was pretty resistant initially but after some convincing/showing him the literature, he suggested 20mg Nolvadex for 2 months. I asked for a LHRH stimulation test and 3 Adiol G, backed up by my reasoning, he declined. Good thing is, he has a heavy research background, so I am optimistic that having him buy into PFS may also start to change the minds of others.

I had my last pill of Nolva in the end of May. I progressively reduced the dosage to 15, 10 and 5mg, week by week. Initially, my ED improved a bit, however it was short lived, only for a couple of weeks. I am thinking about asking him for some Arimidex. Based on all of my lab results, summarized below, is this a good idea?

Dec 2010
Free T = 10 (9-26 pg/ml)
Total T = 345 (260-778 ng/dl)

March 2011
LH = 3.6 (1.2-8.6 mIU/ml)
FSH = 2.8 (1.3-19.3 mIU/ml)
Estradiol = 23 (0-46 pg/ml)

June 2011
Free T = 11.20 (9-26 pg/ml)
Total T = 391 (260-778 ng/dl)
Bioavail T = 171 (42-247 ng/dl)

LH = 3.6 (1.2-8.6 mIU/mL)
FSH = 3.0 (1.3-19.3 mIU/mL)

December 2011 (Prior to 20mg Nolvadex, 3 months)
Total T = 15 (10-28 nmol/:wink:
Bioavail = 191.6 (57-248 ng/dl)

LH 5 (1-8mIU/mL)
FSH 2.3(1-11 mIU/mL.)
Estradiol 38 (13-59 pg/ml)

TSH 1.98 (0.4-3.80 mIU/L)
Prolactin 8 (4-15 ug/L)
SSBG 20 (14-48 nmmol/l)

JUNE 2012 (1 Month after, 3 months Nolvadex)
Total T = 481 (260-778 ng/dl)
LH = 3.3 (1.2-8.6 mIU/mL)
FSH=2.2 (1.3-19.3 mIU/mL)
Esterdiol = 38 (0-46 pg/ml)

My conclusions:

  • My Estradiol in December 2011(pre Nolva)/June 2012 (post Nolva) is out of whack, compared to March 2011
  • June 2012, my total T/free T is still pretty low, for a 26 year old
  • LH/FSH are also pretty low (June 2012)

Should I ask for the Arimidex? Would be grateful, for any advice.

Thank you.

#12

This is my opinion about what I have observed.

Mostly our LH is low. Why pituritary problems? very much doubt it. If it was as simple as that HCG and Test would work good. It does not.

So our LH levels are lowish for a reason. Some kind of feedback. My guess is estradiol. Estrodiol has a strong feedback on the pituritary. So imagine your body had a propoensity to create estradiol at a rate 20 percent greater post fin than pre fin. What would happen? LH would DROP, total T would DROP, Free T would DROP SHBG may increase.

You would be left with higher or equal level of estrogen with lower free t. So you would be estrogen dominent. From what I can see see estrogen blocks the androgen receptor and also decreases the amount of androgen receptors. And seems to reduce adiol g according to one set of blood tests I saw.

My theory too is that there is no way you can have good cortiol levels with low anabolic action. Your body will balance test / cort always so without the testosterone being active you will have very low free cortisol levels. Otherwise your body would break itself down including vital organs.

Low test cause our dicks not to work and many other things. Low cort causes many other problems.

If you increase anabolic action in your body your cortisol levels will increase. The only way I can see to do this is to get free test and free estrogen in check. You can test via siliva as this measures free hormones. Also test cortisol.

If you do get free est and free test in check and still feel bad then we have some kind of geneexoression / androgen receptor type problem. But their is little evidence to think that until someone here shows both free test and free est and free cortisol in check and reports they are still not feeling good.

So my suggestion is work on loweing your estrogen with follow up siliva tests. You could use aromasin / arimidex / pes erase or something along those lines.

#13

Thanks Vincentv. I have been feeling more fatigued as of late, which may be attributed to low cortisol. I am going to get my cortisol tested and give Arimidex a shot.

#14

Do a siliva test for the cortisol 4 time daily. Also add on Test and Est to this test. This will show you your free levels.

#15

Hey Jayv,

It might be harder to find these days, but, calcium d glucarate helped me. It’s supposed to assist in clearing to estrogen. I’d take 2 a day for 4 days then a break. A good acidopholous probiotic in the morning and bedtime, as well. This seems to keep me stable.

If I take a cialis (1 a week) or libido herb like Now Men’s Virility (say 3 a week) they are very effective.

I think health Canada may have black listed cal d g… or so the local Supplement store owner says. He carries some mixed with milk thistle …but, we shouldn’t go near that.

If you have to wait for your appt to get armidex, I would try cal d g, first, if you can find it somewhere.

#16

Vincentv, I am going to order one of those cortisol testing kits.

bluejaysfan, when I cycle DIM, I have seen some improvement with my ED in the past but like most things, I build tolerance. Never heard of calcium d glucarate but I am going to definitely look into it.

Thanks guys.