high Progesterone might be blocking 5ar activity

General Discussion
#1

That is what i think is happening to me: (took Finasteride for 1.5 years)

While taking the drug:

  • Progesterone was kept high because it didn’t convert in the same amount to allopregnanolone, due to 5ar inhibition.
  • High progesterone reduced the levels of LH and FSH, as it was evident on all my blood tests after fin (i have normal levels of T)
  • High progesterone altered my levels of zinc and fat storage. Progesterone is responsible to balance these.
  • Lower levels of allopregnanolone led me to high anxiety and depression, and a feeling that my body is always at high speed.

After quiting:

  • Despite the fact that finasteride isn’t blocking 5ar anymore, somenthing else is blocking 5ar activity and i think it is High Progesterone. It is just like women when they have a period: Their level of progesterone increase, this high level of progesterone inhibits 5ar, and less allopregnanolone is produced. As a result they get PMS… Pretty much how we all feel dealing with stress.
    If that is true, we are stuck in a cycle:
    Finasteride caused us to get to a point of abnormally high progesterone for men. And now, high progesterone does the function finasteride was doing…
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#2

Funny thing is I had high progesterone AND high DHT. How, I ask you, is it possible that I have high DHT if progesterone is supposed to block 5ar activity?

#3

Because there is more than one type of 5ar. 5ar-I, 5ar-II and i am not sure if there is a 5ar-III. High progesterone blocks the one responsible for converting progesterone in allopregnanolone.
Having high DHT not necessarily mean you re converting T correctly and at the points of the body it used to be. Have you thought of the possibility that your body might not be using/absorbing the little DHT you convert, so it accumulates and come high on the blood test?

#4

I TRY TO EXPLAIN THIS MECHANISM TO YOU AT LEAST FOR A MONTH!!! IT IS GOOD THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS ALSO AN ABILITY FOR THE SAME BRAVE THOUGHT.

My latest post about this looped action from the other topic below!!

Andrenal fatigue is rather a myth. If we talk about a rubbery feeling muscule structure/deca dick(rubbery dick)/brain fog it is because progesteron replace/inhibits 5AR.

It is a looped mechanism. If you will not fight progesteron that binds to the receptor site you will not allow 5AR to be rebuild in the cell. The only way to rebuild 5AR is to decrease progesteron that acts as natural 5AR inhibitor.It also supresses LH, FSH and oxytycine release.

This is very difficult, because it requires dramatic changes in your life style. Everything that upregulates testosteron/progesteron —>alcohol, cigaretts, caffeine and many other even healthy foods lead to the higher hormonal output. When 5AR is not regenerated it will keep your hormons away from being further catalized.

I think such delicate condition requires 100% attention on what you eat ad what you do. The main goal is to reduce as much progesteron as you can to help your 5AR intracell to be rebuild.
if you want to call it adrenal fatigue, then do it so, but the mechanism is more important.

And YES! This is exactly more like a pregnent woman hormonal profile!!

that’s why I think that if our condition will not return normal just by itself someday, the new one and only available progesteron inhibitor RU 486 might be the solution to stop this loop action going over-and-over.

Cheers!!

PS: Big Softie —. you have no idea what was your pre fin DHT!! It might have been much over the labolatory range as some of guys here who did recover. You would have to know your pre fin profile to know whether it is high enough for you right now. Another thing is that DHT output is extremely difficult to measure… because DHT is mediated by Oxytycine, that’s why it is pulsative rather then flat. Elevated progesteron supress LH, FSH not allowing oxytycine to boost your 5AR (there are many studies about the importance of oxytycine and its mechanism of action).

Mew do not blame us for having little medical backround to that… so the baloon inventors did not have to much backround for the invention, despite some theories combined together.

#5

Majkellos, thanks for your reply.
I think this theory makes a lot of sense, for SOME of us. For the guys who have low T, i think it is a different situation. This is my situation, compare to yours Majkellos, maybe we can build a strategy to deal with this:

These are normal:
Testosterone - 591 ng/ml - normal
Free T came normal too - just can’t find the result
shbg - normal
Cortisol 20 ug/dl - range 5 - 25 ug/dl
Erections normal in size, just not spontaneus and takes longer to achieve

These are less than what they used to be / below range:
FSH: 1.66 - range 1.37 - 13.58 mUi/ml (very low)
LH: 2.79 - range 1.14 - 8.75 mUi/ml (very low)
penis sensitivity
sex drive
mood (depression)
orgasm

These are above range / more than what they used to be:
Prolactine 21.58 - range 2.58 - 18.12 ng/ml (very high)
DHT 1770 - range 250 - 990 pg/ml
Estradiol 35.32 - range - 11 - 44 pg/ml
Progesterone came higher than normal (i tested it on the same day i tested free T and i can 't find these results now)
Energy ( i have way to much energy, it is like my body never slows down)
Irritation (i was a very calm person now i yell for any reason !)
Anger
Impatience

What are your thoughts on how to reduce progesterone? Diet, exercise, etc… ?
Is there a test available to measure allopregnanolone? Thanks!

#6

Right below…

#7

We are definetely on the same boat and it is even proven by your blood tests. My blood tests are simply similar to yours. I have a high T too. You propably have progesteron +25%/+50% above the range.

All of your symptoms are similar to mine.

My penis size and shape is normal, but it also requires more time and concentration to make it work. There is also a less DHT balooning effect while heading to the orgasm. Orgasm gives not as much pleasure as it was before. All the other sides 100% the same.

I was on antibiotic regimen to help my 5 alpha reductase being rebuild via cell. The goal was to decrease progesteron influance and its strong ability to bind to the cell and receptor site. There are many antibiotics that work as progestins antagonists (antibiotics that reduce the output of the birth control pills).

I think I helped to start 5AR regenerate because I feel much better right now and I control myself if the whole process of recovery goes in the proper way. The second important regimen concernes liver. I take essentialle forte, Hepason Complex to help my liver cells regenerate. There are loads of 5AR in the liver cells, but when liver is damaged these cells may not catalize prog/T as it should.

When progesteron looped action is very strong, then body cannot heal itself and there might be no chance for the cell 5AR being regenerated. I may say that I initiated the whole process of recovery providing progestin antagonist peniciline (Ospen), the popular antibiotic. It let my body to rebuild correct cell structure, and I hope I opened the way to get my cells rebuild via reduced progesteron action.

Now I don’t drink alcohol, less caffeine, no cigaretts… etc and NO sport because i want to get back my cells action and right after I will boost hormons, not the other way around. Doing excessive sport right now would only make this looped mechnism stronger via higher hormonal output.

#8

You mentioned two more sides i have… Almost no ballooning Dht effect before orgasm, and orgasms don’t satisfy as much.

You re right about the liver… Big concentration of 5ar. Essentiale Forte seems like a good ideia, i could not find though what Hepason Complex is…

About exercising, i have a big improvement every time i exercise with discipline. It calms me down, my erection is stronger and i feel more upbeat. It is just so hard to do it on a consistent basis, i am always so tired from work. Although exercise will increase progesterone, on the other hand, it realeases Growth hormone, the most potent agent in cell regeneration. So i don’t know.
Anyways, it’d be great to know how your strategy is working with you as we are on the same boat. How long have you been taking the antibiotic? how long do you plan to take it for?

Thanks

#9

you guys are both misinformed, high cortisol is more of a culprit for a lot of your sides and the fat redistributing to other areas. the reason why you feel better and less anxious after exercising is that it turns off cortisol and balances out the adrenals. However, hard strenous exercise will put further strain on them so you have to be careful. and no adrenal fatigue is not a myth, my cortisol has been chronically raised from all of this and even though i havent had it tested i doubt my progesterone has. most of your sides well the impotence etc are from damaged neuro pathways ie your brain has forgotten how to achieve a proper orgasim cause the hormone signals were shut off for so long.

#10

Ithappens you are not right. Cortisol that you mention is a result not the------> essential cause/reason.

The essential, fundamental reason is elevated progesteron. Progesteron plays an essential role in raising cortisol further. Cortisol output is also managed by progesteron. Read some studies about the relation between progesteron and cortisol.

Somebody could certainly ask what causes progesteron to be elevated first… the answer is " looped mechanism". First when 5AR was reduced after some time progesteron became elevated, then when your body got used to the downregulated 5AR progesteron kept elevated. Then when you stopped the drug, you came to the point when progesteron does not let your 5AR to be restored. Progesteron is even more potent natural 5AR inhibitor the finasteride. Progesteron plays also a predominant role for the cortisol release.

Our goal is to decrease progesteron to let LH, FSH/5AR, neurotransmitters to be upregulated/rebuild for the increase of oxytycine output and further 5AR.

This is very dificult because elevated prog does not let cells to be rebuild.

Exercise might give an impression of making progress, but I rather suggest to stay away from the exercise and to see whether it can help to slowly reconstruct cell structure… Exercise might give you the false impression of improvement by the T increase, but it also boost progesteron so you should better reconsider. At least you should try.

There still remains a fundamental question. Why our cells are to weak to get back to its original profile… Why this looped mechanism remains anyway… and finaly is it possible to recover… time will show.

RU 486 might be a promissing solution for us, as our state might be comparible to the pregnent woman…and it might be the way to stop this looped action… this is a speculation but who knows…

Hepason complex is the same as Hepatil (hepatil is a worldwide name I guess), but I am sure you will get a certain help at your drug store for the OTC liver drugs.

#11

Majekellos while I agree that Progesterone is one of the main causes of the problem you have to ask yourself why your adrenals keep pumping out excess progesterone and furthering the production to cortisol etc. I agree to a point, but there is a lot more to this than just down regulating progesterone that is key but believe me from my experience you cant just drop progesterone down with simple life style changes, you need sleep to help reset everything and part of the reason guys on here aren’t sleeping is blocked 5-AR contributing to a loss of GABA from the progesterone and also because of raised cortisol and excess adrenaline. When I was supplementing with HC I found that I was sleeping better slightly and also able to go to sleep at night. We can’t take the stress off out adrenals and control progesterone, but we can control cortisol and adrenaline. I have a theory to trying to cure all of this that Im working on now based on my own experience and research and will post in the near future.

#12

The one area that I may have to disagree with you on is when you say progesterone is even more of potent 5AR reducer than fin. I say this because when transgender men who want to be women take large amounts of progesterone supplementation, while they have all the physical sides happen such as gyno, redistrubution of fat, etc etc, they don’t seem to have anywhere close to the mental problems that many guys on here do and are still fully functional.

#13

So, to sum it up, with fin you get elevated progesterone (due to blocking of Progesterone --> Allopregnanolone conversion), increased E and decreased DHT to keep E under control? If this is correct, it’s no wonder weird stuff is happening

#14

I would say that if we had a face to face conversation, we would come to the point of total agreement.

I am aware of the fact how fitness and sleep is important in the way to recover. Both phisical effort and good sleep boosts growth hormon release which is an essenital ingredient in a way to recover.

Boosting natural output of growth hormon may help to rebuild healthy cells. I get very little progress from one day to another and this is always happening after good sleep. When I have a turbulent sleep I am simply not doing any progress at all, or even I make a step back. Good diet (not to much food at one time) is also an important issue because you give the chance to your system not to focus on the digestive process.

The only thing that is different about our point of view is the idea of using/not using sleep drugs.

I think that it is not realy good to get your body to the state of addiction to the sleep drug, which will basicaly happen after some time. I think it is better to relax and try to get a little progress from one day to another without any other influance.

Cheers and good luck.

#15

I’ve been reading many posts on this board and I have to disagree with your thoughts on Progesterone. The reason so many of you have high levels of Pro is because your body is trying to regulate high estrogen levels. You may think Pro is the enemy but in reality it’s the estrogen. If you had your estrogen levels checked when you were 18, you’ld find out that now your levels are extremely high. How do I know? If your estrogen levels were low, you wouldn’t have high levels of Progesterone. If you were taking propecia or proscar for a long time, your body had no way of breaking down elevated Test except to convert it into estrogen. Most people here seem very intelligent and I welcome any thoughts:

Males make progesterone. They need it to make their testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone. Males synthesize progesterone in amounts less than women do but it is still vital. You can measure male’s progesterone levels, and you’ll find that when the woman has this follicle damage I’m talking about, the amount of progesterone she makes is less than that of a male.

 Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems will appreciate the speed of relief with progesterone cream. Dr. Lee recommends that men use 8 - 12 mg of progesterone daily. Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT.

 Progesterone may also help men with complexion and increased energy. [b]Progesterone balances the estrogens that build in a man's body[/b]. Furthermore, it may be important in the prevention and/or treatment of prostatism and prostate cancer. Dr Lee has had men contact him telling him that as a result of applying progesterone cream to their wife they were seeing that their symptoms of prostatism such as urinary urgency and frequency decreased considerably. Several men with prostate cancer reported that their PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen) level decreased and they have had no progression of their prostate lesions since using the cream themselves. Another man contacted Dr Lee to say his bone metastases are now no longer visible by Mayo Clinic X-ray tests. After reviewing endocrinology books in regard to hormone changes in older men Dr Lee found that progesterone levels drop, estradiol levels rise, and testosterone changes in form in older men. This is significant enough to warrant research to determine if the application of progesterone can be used to prevent prostrate cancer.

 Dr Lee has pointed to research that suggests that too much progesterone in men can prevent sperm maturation possibly acting as a contraceptive. Since both progesterone and testosterone work to build new bone, progesterone can be useful for castrated men (common procedure for prostate cancer) in protecting against osteoporosis as in women.
#16

My blood tests always had high progesterone and for the longest time, I thought high progesterone was my problem.

I actually took ru486 for a few weeks. I did this following a study that showed it blocks progesterone and raises testosterone. It may have been placeobo, but I felt like my erections were stronger. I stopped taking it after 3 weeks or so because I was leaving the country.

#17

What is your progesterone level or what is to high for you ?

#18

Did you have any luck or benefit from taking RU486 or mifepristone? If you did?

#19

I googled that drug and saw a study where it made male rats impotent along with other side effects

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