Has anyone tried Hcg injections rather than T replacement for low Testosterone? I don’t like the idea of having to rely on an external source if one can possibly stimulate their Leydig cells to produce their own.
This question has been answered already, as you can read in this Drug Therapy forum.
For example, this thread has some details on hCG use:
Right, this is exactly where I’m coming from…if I were ever try to fix my hormone levels I would definitely regard any type of ‘replacement therapy’ as a last resort. Obviously the preferred route would be to “jump-start” or “reset” the HPTA…in other words return your body to natural (or as close as possible) hormone regulation.
Hypo-is-here seems to differ from both Dr. Crisler and Shippen on the method of jumpstarting, however…
Crisler and Shippen seem to favor hCG for “jumpstarting” the HTPA
One of the sticky articles entitled “Anabolic Steroid-induced Hypogonadism” addresses this issue
…So, according to this source, all three of these drugs are capable of restoring the HPTA. The mechanism of action, apparently, is that they cause a “surge” in gonadotrophins.
I would just add, that it sort of seems to me that clomid would be the preferable choice for finasteride users. I don’t claim to fully understand the mechanisms at play here, but comparing the mechanism of clomid with that of hCG, and considering the theorized mechanism by which finasteride can shut down the HTPA might be informative.
Reviewing Fin’s mechanism: T increased, DHT decreased; DHT no longer acts as strongly to oppose E, resulting in elevated T and E, which in turn act on hypothalamus to reduce release of GnRH. Lower GnRH signals pituitary to decrease production of LH and FSH. Then, somehow, the system becomes ‘fixed’ in this mode of regulation.
Clomid acts on the HTPA in a way opposite that of fin. While fin downregulates hypothalamus release of GnRH, Clomid, acting upon the same receptors, upregulates it. It acts at the same location in the HTPA, only in the opposite direction.
Just a thought.
HCG is an luteinizing hormone (LH) analogue. That is to say it mimics LH and induces the leydig cells into action in order to produce more testosterone, a certain percentage of which is reduced to the major metabolites of testosterone, namely dihydrotestosterone and estradiol. At least this is what occurs when the testicles are functional
When HCG mimics LH, your bodies actual level of LH is greatly suppressed so that it is almost undetectable.
This is something that occurs on testosterone replacement therapy, except on TRT the testosterone is not produced by the body.
In both cases the HPTA is VERY much suppressed.
If someone on HCG or TRT comes off treatment they will both find that their HPTA has hit rock bottom, that testosterone and dihydrotestosterone levels plummit and that estradiol is left as the dominent hormone until the HPTA recognises the lack of testosterone in the body and starts to redress the balance by upregulating GnRH at the hypothalamus, which in turn upregulates the previously suppressed LH resulting in a increased natural testosterone production.
The above describes how the HPTA hits rock bottom and how it usually recovers in men ho do not have hypothalmic/pituitary disease, or primary hypogonadism…
HCG has only been reported as helping the HPTA recover in a very small number of cases. I have never seen, heard or spoken to a single person who has made such a recovery with HCG despite being involved in related forums across the world for around three years.
HCG absolutely suppresses the HPTA, the complete reverse of jump-starting it- unless you simply mean taking hCG on a permanent basis can in cases of hypogonadotropic problems restore testosterone prodcution- which it can (but that is not remotely the same thing).
HCG increases endogenous/the bodies only production of testosterone where testicles can function but are not functioning due to hPTA issues- but it does this by by-passing the HPTA altogether…
Hope that clears the issue up.
P.S
It might, might being the operative word have a place alongside Clomid or Tamoxifen etc, in that one drug could be used to fire up the HPTA whilst one was used to try and improve testicular function/reserve…that might be possible.
But hCG alone- to my mind it does not and will not restore HPTA function.
Interesting…
So would you say that Dr. Shippen is incorrect when he writes:
Also, you write…
How many people have you heard of/spoken to who have made a complete recovery using Clomid or Tamoxifen? Are either of these drugs preferable to the other for this purpose?
And most importantly, Hypo: What type of treatment would you pursue, were you afflicted with secondary hypogonadism?
Thanks.
Quote
“CG works nicely with other natural boosters and, in early stages of the male menopause, is often only needed to give an initial cycling boost to the endocrine system. The pituitary continues on after this shove in the normal direction activates control panel receptors.”
Unquote
I agree with Dr Shippen on almost all things, but I find it very difficult to concur with him in this statement, though perhaps there are reasons that differentiate the above.
I have never, I repeat NEVER heard of even one person recovering in from hypogonadism via HCG, not in the UK or the US and I have been on the forums of both for years.
He mentions andropause though. Andropause is a particular form of hypogonadism that can relate to metabolic issues and or primary problems relating to the testis.
So it might be possible that in such individuals an effect maybe seen via aforementioned treatments.
That said Dr Shippen uses ultra low levels of HCG and he is also mentioning natural boosters. If natural boosters are used at the same time as very low levels of HCG then it would not be possible to ascertain what exactly produced the endocrine/HPTA boost.
In order to do that you would need to use each medication separately under double blind placebo based control studies.
I simply reiterate that HCG being an analogue of LH bypasses the need for LH and suppress LH- that is a fact in most possibly/probably all circumstances.
Quote
How many people have you heard of/spoken to who have made a complete recovery using Clomid or Tamoxifen? Are either of these drugs preferable to the other for this purpose?
Unquote
I have heard of a number of people who have recovered on clomid and of other that continue to take it as a treatment at low levels instead of TRT (those with secondary issues). Clomid is a treatment that needs to be carefully medicated as it can cause very problematic side effects, some serious if not carefully monitored.
I have also heard of people who have been prescribed Tamoxifen to blcok estradiol who have subsequently been better post treatment.
Quote
And most importantly, Hypo: What type of treatment would you pursue, were you afflicted with secondary hypogonadism?
Unquote
I am afflicted with secondary hypogonadism. But I am not a good example, as I have many serious health issues, so I am far from an average case.
There is no one out of the box option. It all depends upon what is indicated by pathology, symptoms and also by reaction to given treatments. Also it depends on the preferences of the individual and what their concerns are and any limitations of their medical position.
I have found what appears to be a case of someone being successfully “cured” with hCG alone:
pmj.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/74/867/45
“Testicular function remained normal thereafter on no treatment.”
I understand that both testicular and hypothalamic function can be negatively effected by steroid abuse, so perhaps this is only talking about restoring the former. But then again the author refers to his patient’s “hypogonadism” as being “successfully treated,” which in my mind implies the totality of the condition.
And even if this was the intended meaning, I have a hard time understanding how mechanism at work could restore proper hypothalamic function. hCG should boost T production in the testes, which produces negative feedback in the hypothalamus, in effect suppressing GnRH production. That would seem to be counterproductive.
I cant offer any proofe regarding this but my last endo said he had patients that recoverd after hcg use alone.
But what does are the circumstances, and what is implied by recover?
e.g
Did the people spoken of have andropause- hypogonadism due to age or was it anabolic induced hypogonadism or pure hypogonadism?
This matters greatly.
Moreso;
By recovery via HCG does he mean when they remain on HCG?
That would be totally different.
Did the individuals concerned take other medications at the same time as the Shippen patients did?
Again that could make a grea deal of difference.
All I can say is that I am not aware of a single individual either in the US or the UK that has ever mentioned recovering from hypogonadism via HCG- where the HCG has been discontinued. I have never heard of one person in years of frequenting the international forums.
And I am not aware of a single provable study that has shown HCGs effect in this regard, just a couple of theoretical one off cases.
If people start turning up onthe internatioal forums across the world saying this is the case and/or provavble studies show that HCG can do this then I will agree/concur and recognise it as fact.
Until such time I will not recognise it, as it is unproven and simply anecdotal and something mentioned/claimed by the odd doctor.
The two Endocrinologists that I’ve seen would much prefer to treat low T with TRT over HCG as it’s much cheaper in the long run and also it won’t suppress your Pituitary gland.
Why would one feel better with HCG over TRT? You mention not wanting to rely on an external source…well HCG is an external source as well. Yes, ur testes won’t shrink however isn’t TRT much easier to manage…especially the storage of it. HCG storage life is a b*tch…has to be refrigerated and all sorts of crap that make it very difficult to maintain…whereas TRT storage and injection (or glel application) is much easier.
Unfortunately both treatments are a b*tch to manage.
Complete rubbish.
That is talking in terms of black and white when the reality is anything but.
HCG absolutely does work for some men when TRT fails, certain men who suffer from hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
You say TRT won’t suppress the pituitary,
Are you a comedian?
You must be because that is such a laughably stupid remark it is unreal. Surprised you didn’t understand more from your Google searches 
….sure.
TRT hammers the hypothalamus and gonadotropins and often reduces LH to nil or near undetectable.
By the way suppression comes the way of the hypothalamus and it is the hypothalamus not the pituitary that is in charge- the hypothalamus that suppresses the pituitary. So your hierarchical structure is wrong.
I know the above because I have seen thousands of pathology reports in individual men over years and also because I have read countless detailed endocrine texts books…
You don’t understand the basics or the HPTA or TRT or in fact any basics of male endocrinology because your entire knowledge stems from google- total joke!!!
Also your endocrinologists were pathetic;
I saw your treatment and reaction and I know exactly why thing didn’t seem to help you long term.
I would help anyone in your position- other than you.
I know I could give you a very good chance of improving your health- but your on your own as far as I’m concerned!!!
You have no idea at all, none.
I have been on HCG and TRT for years….your just talking utter rubbish.
Why are you so mean to me? I’ve sent you several PMs to help my case but you kept replying to me that you were too busy to help me. Also that you weren’t quite sure what to make of my situation or my lab work.
I’m limited to Google searches as I don’t have access to all the experts you talk about. I’m just trying to make my way thru this like everyone else is. Only you don’t seem to want to help me like you have been all the others.
I guess I will try to understand and get on with my life.
Regards
Jack Evans
That’s Not true though Jack.
I have tried to help everyone I can at the website, each and every minute I have been here. The only period of time I couldn’t help anyone was at a time when I couldn’t be here because of very difficult trying personal circumstance. If you posted anything to me during that time, (I’m not sure you did as I don’t see any mails in my inbox from you at that time), then If I didn’t help you, it would have only been because I had to look after myself during that time and couldn’t help anyone for a short period of time.
I did very much try to help you via threads you posted in but you weren’t interested in doing what was required for me to help you….here are two excepts from that thread;
Here is the thread where anyone can see I was clearly trying to help.
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101
If you look you will see that I was waiting for you to get back to me, so I could help you as of the 1st of Feb this year. So you have had about five months to get back to me in that thread!
In terms of pms, I have certainly NOT had a message from you that I can see from my in-box for some time.
What I very much have had from you is a series of mails where you have been sarcastic, dismissive, rude and ignorant of pretty much all I have had to say;
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=654
So given everything I have taken off you; when you have dismissed what I have to say because you can google search and I then read comments like that below in reference to TRT;
Then I am not going to let that go, because what you are saying so wrong that it should be corrected for the benefit of anyone reading on the site, so they do not get the wrong impression.
Also when you say this below;
You’re speaking with VERY limited knowledge of TRT and just google searches and like much of your talk on this subject matter, it simply doesn’t cut the mustard and it misleads people who may be reading.
It has taken me many years to understand what I do, years of first hand experience of living with hypogonadism, years of differing treatment protocols, years of in depth reading on the subject matter, years of seeing/speaking to private specialists private and otherwise, years of going through the UK NHS system and it has taken years of speaking to thousands of men across the world and years of study of the conditions, of pathology etc. I have tried to put this knowledge to the best use I can in order to help as many people as I possibly can.
But what have I got from you Jack?
I am mocked and treated with scorn/complete disdain by someone that does not understand the issues involved, mocked by someone who google searches everything, mocked in these matters by someone I have tried to help in the past.
Have you any idea how galling all this is Jack?
And now you’re playing the injured party and sound as though you want me to help you?
And you know what Jack, the thing is I actually would still try and help you if you asked despite everything (shakes head, very unhappy).
P.S
I apologise to others for the nature of this post given it is not on the subject matter originally posted.
If there are any further questions regarding HCG, how it works dosages typically used in hypogondism, ups and downs of treatment etc I will gladly answer…I have been on HCG in the past on a number of occasions.
Dude, I was only kidding. I would never look to you (or anyone on this forum) for any help or suggestions. You’re asking me if I’m a comedian? Have you read the posts on this site? I would think the prostate massagers or better the butt finger fuckers are the comedians. Also the ones that post such ridiculous theories as to what’s going on with them. Blood work is fine so get off it. No one has Hypogonadism fellas. No one is going to benefit from TRT, HCG, or any other prescription drug…only get you farther from being better.
You should have a medical degree by now. Then maybe you’d get the respect you crave for. I guess the forum should just accept that this is As Good As It Gets. Anyone who is putting their hopes in someone like yourself who is just a forum posting freak is in for a rude awakening. Before they realize it 10 years will have gone by and they will still be chasing their tails…similar to yourself.
Oh yeah, all the studies and theories that this forum shares is from Google…you’re a fucking moron if you haven’t realized it. As for UpToDate…that resource is 10x better than you’ll ever be.
I’m out for good as I have nothing to offer that Google can’t.
Although I do plan to watch the forum as it’s free entertainment.
Let the Jack Evans bashing begin.
Peace!
Jack Evans - Rockin813@yahoo.com
Shockingly ignorant comment.
I am respected by many people for having helped them, in the hypogonadal community, the gynecomastia community and to a lesser degree here. I have not craved attention or adoration, none of this has been about me. I just wanted a little respect for the fact that I put time and effort in to help people, for the effort if nothing more, obviously that is asking too much of you. In terms of the mocking and disdain I have been on the end of; I should say that most endocrinologists I have spoken to on this subject regard me as very knowledgeable and on the issue of male hormones somewhat of an expert in laymans terms, but what does that matter to you.
I see.
So why are you here?
Why are you at the site at all if you have such complete disdain for all here?
There is no further conversation with you at any point; that is it for me.
P.S
If google and your source for information is so good, then why do you have to be constantly/non stop have to be corrected by me for ludicrous gaffs?
That is rhetorical- do not contact me again- do not pm me.
so u r saying i should just ignore my testosterone levels below the scale even tho im 31 yrs old then? just dismiss it as the odd number every1 has if done enough testing? Forget about it even tho it corelates with every symptom i have? Get real, lives tough we all in here know this to well. What are u gonna do, stick yr head in the sand and hope it goes away? u try stuff and if its not working u try something else. Im sorry things appearantly dident work out for u yet so far but that dosent give u the right to shit all over ppl expecting them to take it just cause u r not feeling well.
As for prostate massages (buttfingerfucking) its a proven remedy for prostatitis, if thats what some guys have they might feel better from it.
I think if what u have to offer is anything close to what we have seen lately u should stay away from posting and read this site only as for yr own amusement as u put it.
This place suppose to be somewhere to go for ideas on how to improve and if thats not working atleast we should be able to provide support for eachother if nothing else.
cheers
Good riddance.
Hypo, believe me, your efforts are most appreciated on this forum.
Geez, I leave the forum for a few days and all hell breaks loose… well Jack, sorry to see you go, I did appreciate your insights over the past while, I understand you come from a more “realistic” point of view on things but honestly that’s no reason to attack people here who are in dire straits.
If you don’t believe your problems are Fin related, I’m not sure why you are here… sorry dude, I know you’ve been going through some tough stuff yourself, but disrespecting others on here won’t be tolerated, no matter who it is.
Disagreement is fine but name-calling and such is way out of line. Some of the theories proposed might be a bit crazy but whatever, they are just theories - leave them be.
The info on this forum does NOT CONSTITUTE PROPER MEDICAL ADVICE – it is a place for us to support each other and share opinions on possible treatment options to discuss with Endos/Uros/GPs etc. If that doesn’t appeal to you, then I’m sorry… this forum has nothing to offer you.
Best of luck with your endeavours, and please don’t make me do something I shouldn’t have to should this get further out of hand…