For those claiming muscle/ bone loss - how much weight have you lost?

Symptoms Physical
#41

Chronic inflammation is a major cause of muscle loss.

“Both chronic and extreme inflammation are associated with disruptions of anabolic signals initiating muscle growth. Chronic inflammation has been implicated as part of the cause of the muscle loss that occurs with aging.[39][57] Increased protein levels of myostatin have been described in patients with diseases characterized by chronic low-grade inflammation.[58] Increased levels of TNF-α can suppress the AKT/mTOR pathway, a crucial pathway for regulating skeletal muscle hypertrophy,[59] thereby increasing muscle catabolism.[60][61][62] Cytokines may antagonize the anabolic effects of Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1).[63][64] In the case of sepsis, an extreme whole body inflammatory state, the synthesis of both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic proteins are inhibited, with the inhibition taking place preferentially in fast-twitch muscle fibers.[65][63] Sepsis is also able to prevent leucine from stimulating muscle protein synthesis.[44] In animal models, when inflammation is created, mTOR loses its ability to be stimulated by muscle growth.[66]”

#42

UK20 - That’s a very interesting quote, does this link in to the Prostatitis theory of inflammation?

BTW what’s the source of this quote ?

#43

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammation

Scroll down to the bottom and you will see the heading ‘Chronic inflammation and muscle loss’. There are a number of sources which you can follow up.

it’s about time we stopped focusing on hormones alone - I think Solonjk may have started something vital. Alternative thinking.

coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/

Have you checked out that source? a Harvard biologist looking at PFS in the context of inflammation.

#44

Bump. awor, I’d love to hear your thoughts about this.

#45

UK20, thanks for posting that blog. Yet another reason to believe inflammation is a big cause of our situation.

I was surprised to see chocolate & coffee as recommended foods in his anti-inflammatory diet recommendation. I know quite a few guys have eliminated these foods from their diet. Maybe that’s doing more harm than good.

It also seems interesting that he recommends Vit D & Vit C supplements daily. Ironically, these are the only two that I still take. They are the only ones that seem to help.

coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/search/label/anti-inflammatory%20diet

Also, does anyone know if this doctor is doing more research on PFS? His blog hasn’t been updated on this topic in a while.

#46

Boston2009’ I agree. Both coffee and chocolate are labeled as inflammatory with immune system disorders that lead to inflammation such as chrones disease or ibs. Why would coffee and caffeine reduce inflammation?

#47

Martin,

Even though the article didn’t clarify this, I was under the assumption the doctor meant high % dark Chocolate, not a hershey’s milk chocolate bar. We know that is bad for you. Cocoa bean’s come from the earth, so if you eat dark chocolate with over 70% (cocoa bean) it’s high in antioxidant’s. This is the only kind of chocolate that I consume in small amounts and it does make me feel better when I eat it.

Maybe the jury is still out on this one, but I googled chocolate and inflamation and there are a lot of articles that indicate it reduces inflammation. Who know’s with our condition though, since we are speculating on everything.

ehow.com/how_4791554_reduce-inflammation-body-food-exercise.html

#48

I did not lose much weight. I was 165 pre crash and have hovered around there for the 6 post years till now. HOWEVER, I did/do have muscle wasting. I am so much skinnier than I was pre-crash. I was a collegiate athlete, mostly muscle and little fat. My jean size has gone from 32 to 30. But I have added fat to my abs. When I took testosterone and got my T and DHT above range, I noticed that I was able to gain some muscle back, without even working out. Others also noticed this. I have been off Testosterone for a year and I think my muscle wasting is back again. People notice how much skinnier I am, even though I haven’t lost weight. I also took a steroid/pro-hormone once for a week. It was SuperDrol and I added a ton of muscle real fast using this.

I have a friend who has all the same symptoms as me almost to a T. He never took propecia, saw palmetto, ssri, etc…but instead had an illness for 3 weeks that he never recovered from.

In my mind it very well could be what awor is saying. I am anxiously waiting for the results. Part of me also thinks that it could be adrenals tho. High and/or low levels of cortisol cause muscle wasting very rapidly.

#49

I have certainly read that high levels of cortisol cause muscle wasting but not very low levels. Can you find anything to verify this? Initially I had very low cortisol and lost a lot of muscle quickly, however I did also have low T.

#50

Well, google addisonian crisis or adrenal crisis. All this is, is a severe event of very low cortisol. These people end up in the hospital and most lose like 10-40lbs in just a few days.

You do not need to be severely low in cortisol for it to waste muscle though. For this google “catabolism low cortisol” or “muscle wasting low cortisol” or “catabolism adrenal fatigue”

#51

Its a medical emergency, but do you have any sources for this particular claim?

Cant find any sources using those search terms. Where have you seen any information that states low cortisol leads to muscle loss?

#52

I’ll post a few but if you search there are hundreds of examples. Hell, the dictionary even states that an Addisonian Crisis includes weight loss.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738643
ferret.org/pdfs/health/Adrenal_Disease_Comprehensive_with_Medical_Therapy.pdf

from practicalpainmanagement.com/treatments/hormone-therapy/hormone-treatments-chronic-intractable-pain

from leviticus11.com/feelgood.htm

#53

Noone has an adrenal insufficiency on the forum so its pointless me asking why you are quoting experiments in rats (and ferrets) and laypersons blogs as the best sources of information you can find. But this is obviously the most important question:

If this information real or invented? If its real its important you post a source (yes, even about rats or ferrets).

#54

Low cortisol = adrenal insufficiency = adrenal fatigue

They are all the same thing.

And yes MANY PFS people have this.

#55

How doesn’t this prove that we are NOT insensitive to androgen?

#56

Maybe, but stating it leads to muscle wastage is something else entirely. An Addisonian crisis may lead to weight loss but rapid muscle wastage is clearly different. I also haven’t found any credible sources linking adrenal insuffeciency to muscle wastage and, having suffered this extensively, I googled phuck out of any possible connection when my first serum cortisol came back below range.

#57

It doesn’t prove or disprove. IMO if it was as simple as just getting T and DHT up just above range…then my sex drive and erection quality would have came back and it would have cured my fatigue, brain fog, etc as well…

#58

Again, I’m not saying that cortisol is 100% the reason for the muscle wasting/weight loss…but I am saying it is logical and should be looked at.

The first stage(s) of adrenal insufficiency a lot of the time is quasi-Cushing syndrome (very high cortisol). It is VERY well documented that Cushing causes major muscle wasting.

Some more linking AI to muscle loss. You will not find a ton of studies/proper sights on this because no body cares about AI. Pharmaceutical companies and doctors both can not make $$ off of it. It took me 6 doctors before I was DXed. There is more info out there from Vets on Adrenal issues in Dogs.

steveclarknd.com/Adrenal_Fatigue.htm

bodylogicmd.com/for-men/adrenal-fatigue

pamelaegan.com/articles/adrenal-fatigue.htm

#59

My endo gave me Hydrocortisone because my cortisol levels were low (apparently) but all I got was an increase in fat on the gut and under the chin, just in the space of 3 weeks. So I stopped taking it. I was also on DHEA for 18 months but have since stopped.

#60

So you admit there are 0 sources of low cortisol causing muscle loss. The links (3) you have provided are all very dubious sources of information about ‘adrenal fatigue’ mostly from naturopaths. Where on earth are the people in these links getting their own information about this from?

High cortisol causes muscle loss - this is well known.

Maybe men on this forum have a higher incidence of low cortisol. Is ANYBODY able to establish a connection to muscle loss and just having low cortisol from a reputable source of information? Otherwise stop making these silly claims.