Finasteride causes glutathione depletion and leads to CFS?

Speaking according to my experience, oily skin + libido go hand in hand. The problem is that when i get oily skin i get pimples and these pimples are not easy to go away. It’s actually cystic acne but i don’t complain.

Regarding my hair i think it’s too early to say but i am taking photos to see whether i will have a receding hairline in 2 months from now.

I am away for holidays so i wasn’t able to post frequently. I stopped the Methylation Protocol but i am taking NAC 400 mg now (instead of 250-300 mg. Libido is fine but i didnt get the amazing morning wood i had 5 days ago.

Someone asked me about the exact dosage of supplements i am using. Unfortunately i do not remember how much zinc+copper i am getting, i will post this info in a couple of days.

Finally something which is worth saying : My mother had skin problems (Dermographism, hives) which appeared to be allergy-related for the past 2 months. Her dermatologist gave her several creams (none of them worked), antihistamines and also instructed her not to eat certain foods and to keep a food diary. Nothing worked. I urged her to take NAC 600 mg and to spread it out at 3 times a day. In just one day her symptoms receded by 80% and 3 days later she said that she is almost cured. My sister has similar symptoms when she gets very stressed. There seems to be a pattern here so i guess we should all continue the methylation protocol.

So regarding the NAC, I’ve been taking this product for about 10 days so far and I just noticed it has 600mg NAC in it.

http://www.nhthealthyliving.com/K-Pax-Pro-Fuel-of-Life-by-Ortho-Molecular-Products-New-Product_p_4922.html

I haven’t noticed much in energy boost or brain fog or anything like that, but if anything I can I have noticed a little more redness in my penis, before it was kind of pale. It also has active Folate and methylcobalamin in it. I am also taking 1000mcg Jarrows B12 under the tongue every morning, and still taking my active for B vitamin. Maybe I’m overdoing it on the B6 and B12 a little with all of these products.

FeedMeMore, cool to see you’re experimenting with the protocol.

The response time actually takes much more than what mariovitali is reporting. I’m unsure of why he’s responded so quickly, but I have speculated in a previous post.

The people in the trial of this protocol reported improvement in 5 weeks! And they said they felt worst before they felt better. The pathway you are stimulating is very stubborn.

In terms of over doing it, you’re right that Dr. Van Konynenburg has cautioned about overdriving the methylation pathway, which would force the reaction to skip the glutathione step. But methylation would be good.

However, you could probably feel safe sticking to the suggested dosing for the protocol:

  1. 2,000 mcg active B12 sublingual (high dose sublingual is as good as injections). B12 digested is basically thought to have very little absorption, so I don’t count other sources.
  2. 200 mcg Methyl-folate.

Also, I have found TMG (not too much though) very helpful in jump starting things. It stimulates BHMT which is the sort of ‘cheat way’ to start the methylation cycle.

See on the below drawing how BHMT is the ‘short way around’ the methylation cycle? You don’t need B12 to stimulate the cycle when you go the ‘short way.’

http://www.co-cure.org/scan0003.bmp

I get my TMG is low dose from 2 capsules of this:

http://www.holisticheal.com/neurological-health-formula-general-vitaminhhc-general.html

This was the multi used in the trial I’ve posted above. I think this is why my SAMe has improved more than anything else in the cycle.

if you get tired or have muscle cramps, try potassium in bananas or coconut water. I had this problem.

BTW, regarding the Jarrow methyl-B12:

The people on Phoenix Rising are very good at determining which B12 is the best. They have people that are very sensitive so they can tell when they have a good one and when they don’t. Jarrow’s used to be the goto, but I recently saw several posts concerned about Jarrow’s formula:

forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph … nge.18154/

I don’t know what to make of it, but they say ‘Enzymatic Therapy’ has a good one, in case anyone is buying supplements now.

Well I guess I experimented with it “by accident” lol! I’ve been taking an active B vitamin since January as well as 4000 IU of vitamin D. The B vitamin has 800mcg Folate and 1mg methylcobamamin, as well as some zinc, Instrinsic factor, riboflavon, choline, and trimethylglycine.

And I’ve been taking the jarrows B12 for about 3 weeks or so, and the Immune support capsules for 10 days. So my totals look like this:
Folate: 1600 mg
Methylcobalamin: 2500 mcg

I’m honestly not sure how to “know” if I’m feeling better, as I do still have enough energy to workout 6 days a week. I guess my main ways to know would be if my brain fog ceases and I lose this extra 30 lbs I cannot get off of me no matter what I do.

But I am going to keep taking the B vitamins and well as the NAC in the immune support supplement. I’ll keep everyone updated on how things go. and btw, I’m also taking 10 mcg of T3 daily, as mu thyroid is unstable (before and after PFS).

That sounds like a good supplement. What brand is the one with the Instrinsic factor?

Metagenics, here’s a link to the exact product I’m taking:

http://www.metagenics.com/mp/products/vessel-care

Methylation Block and Androgen Dysfunction (post 1 of 2)

There is no doubt there is a long history of interest in elucidating any androgen insensitivity/dysfunction in PFS. Androgen dysfunction would explain a lot of the symptoms of PFS, and also explain the PFS paradox that some have normal testosterone levels, yet the symptoms of low hypogonadism, and/or lack of response to androgen treatment.

The theory I am supporting in this thread has aligned well with the symptoms observed in groups with a methylation block and with a small number of test results on this forum. In an effort to generate more interest in testing and treatment testing, I will continue to post on what I have found.

I’ve come across a lot of biological reasons why high oxidative stress and a methylation block could lead to general androgen dysfunction. But two are clearly documented/researched ways that high oxidative stress and a halted methylation cycle likely leads to androgen dysfunction. Both are by reducing the effectiveness of Androgen Receptor. I think both of these have a compounded effect. This is one.

Review of this thread

In this thread, I have proposed a theory of PFS:

  1. Finasteride causes high oxidative stress,
  2. Which leads to a vicious cycle where the cells stop producing the body’s main antioxidant and the critical methylation cycle stops running. Which means methyl groups are no longer passed around. Which further has major biological consequence.

One consequence of a halted methylation cycle relevant to this post: S-Adenosyl-Methionine (SAMe), which has a job of transferring methyl groups to other molecules (1), is depleted in the Methylation cycle block.

What is Androgen Receptor

Androgen Receptor (AR) is a transcription factor - which means it activates gene expression in androgen sensitive tissues. As we all know, AR is activated by androgens, such as testosterone and DHT, and once activated it stimulates expression of other genes (for a known list of AR targets, see the AR wiki page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor).

Simple explanation of the research presented in this post

Methylation of AR (at least) doubles the activity of AR. Methyl-groups are attached to AR via SAMe.

Tying back to this theory: reduced methylation means a weakened AR.

(note that the below research is about methylation of the fully expressed AR protein, not epigenetic methylation of DNA. In this case methylation of the protein means increased activation)

A halted Methylation Cycle causes reduced androgen receptor activity

In the paper ‘Regulation of the androgen receptor by SET9-mediated methylation,’ the authors demonstrate that methylation of androgen receptor causes a 2-fold enhancement in the activation of AR (2). Figure 4c (full paper linked at footnote 2) is a plot of an AR target gene activity (measure of how much AR is binding to a gene):

AR by itself activates gene targets at baseline = 1.
Then AR + DHT activates target genes at 3 times that of baseline.
And AR + DHT + methylation of a specific amino acid further amplifies AR’s activity to 6 times the baseline value.

So, when the methylation cycle is not running, methyl groups are not moving around the biochemistry of the cell, and AR activity is weakened.

In a second paper released independently and published around the same time: ‘Lysine Methylation and Functional Modulation of Androgen Receptor by Set9 Methyltransferase’ (3), a second amino acid on AR was found to be methylated, and experiments showed a similar effect. My favorite line from the discussion of this paper: “…methylation bestows AR with enhanced transcriptional activity…”

This paper goes on to further emphasize the importance of SAMe and how the redox state (which we know to be dependent on glutathione levels) influences the activity of AR. Here’s the quote from the discussion:

“Given the overlapping methylation and acetylation site at K630, and dependence of acetyltransferase and methyltransferase on the respective cofactors (acetyl-coenzyme A and SAM), we speculate that competing dynamics between acetylation and methylation of AR at K630 may be guided by redox, metabolic, and nutritional states of cells”

Important notes:

  1. In both papers they used a radioactive SAMe to show that the methyl group that makes it to AR is originates SAMe. Again, SAMe is depleted and not replenished in the ME block.

  2. Both papers show that AR is directly methylated, which influences it’s activity. But they both go on to show that methylation does more work at the chromatin and/or promotor regions. I am however keeping this post simple and only talking about direct methylation of AR.

  3. Both papers show that methylation enhances AR-dependent transactivation by increasing N/C-terminal interactions and recruitment of the receptor to target genes - again, not diving into this for simplicity.

  4. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Adenosyl_methionine

  5. Regulation of the androgen receptor by SET9-mediated methylation, nar.oxfordjournals.org/content/e … kq861.full

  6. Lysine Methylation and Functional Modulation of Androgen Receptor by Set9 Methyltransferase, mend.endojournals.org/content/25/3/433.full

Just wanted to let you know, that I’m having success with my custom methylation protocol (based on mariovitali’s protocol). Can sleep much better and brainfog nearly disappeared. I started the protocol 10 days ago. I will add adenosylcobalamin (biological active form of B12) in a couple days.

I’m very positive about this!

I have taken NAC before, as well as B12 and folate in the active forms, just not together. I started a while ago after reading it in here and my forehead that has been dry forever, is finally starting to feel soft, smooth and a little oily like normal.

I am not getting red dots or eczema flare ups either. Right now I’m only taking about 2mg of B12. I have 1 mg 5-MTHF capsules, but, stopped to take an active form B complex. Mainly to get the B6 and other B’s. I think the folate content is 400mcg.

I think I’m in the minority here in that vitamin D seems to not help me. Fish oil definitely helps with nighttime erections.

I think I’m going to up the B12 to 4mg and maybe add curcumin/tumeric. Oxidative stress, inflammation and B12 deficiency or malabsorption seem to describe some of my issues.

I’m eating more bananas, too.

This thread is a good read, thanks guys.

Interesting… I periodically check out the accutane sub-forum at allthingsmale and an accutane-sides sufferer posted this…

I had my genetics tested, turns out i have the mtrr a66g mutation. this indicates problems utilizing b12 not in the methylcobalamin form. Had a fair amt of other problems as well, but not on the mthfr gene.

mtrra66g.com/

Just to be clear. Here is the thread I took that quote from. It’s not the results from a test of mine. Just wanted to show a possible connection to B12 issues with the accutane guys as well.

allthingsmale.com/forum/show … discussion/page3

Hey Man that’s Great!

Make sure you take Active Folate as well. If this is not a problem for you try eating more sugar for some time (say a week). But try different things one at a time so that you know what’s working and what’s not.

For the rest of the people in this thread. I met a Pulmonologist yesterday. She said to me that there is no problem in taking NAC for a long time and 600 mg is considered a safe dosage. She also said that several of her clients take NAC for many years.

Thanks :slight_smile:

I’m already taking active folate, but mine has also folic acid in it and some people in the raising pheonix forum say that folic acid inhibits the absorption of folate. Do you take a supplement with ative folate only or is yours mixed like mine?

I have read some views that NAC should be avoided if someone has excessive mercury issues or if I remember right, CBS mutations. Phoenixrising is where I read it.

I tried curcumin at bedtime last night instead if fish oil and had a great sleep. Vivid dreams and nocturnal erections. Curcumin is recommended to control inflammation before B12/folate can work by the mthf.net site. Thinking of adding it or replacing fish oil with it.

Just received a new order of NAC. It has 1/3 quick release and 2/3 delayed release composition. Here it is:
m.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-N-A- … ablets/135

So with my NAC, B12, B Complex (heavier on B12 with 400mcg active folate) and curcumin… I’m thinking if taking them in this order.

Before breakfast… NAC

About an hour later and after breakfast… B complex + 1mg B12

Lunch… 1mg b12

Dinner… 1mg B12

Bedtime… curcumin

What do you guys think? I may add fish oil again later.

was this the only mutation you had? did you use the genetic genie thing?

That’s common concern about NAC and mercury on phoenixrising.org. The same for Lipoic Acid. Heavy metals are a big deal on on phoenixrising.org. Many often have to get their Mercury anagrams removed and feel better.

The people on phoenixrising.org consistently say that glutathione precursors like NAC cause a lot of problems. They often have to edge into the protocol. They start with a crumb of B12… and then move their way up. The consensus is that these ‘start up’ symptoms are related to mobilization of heavy metals and/or toxins that have built up while the detox symptom was down.

But people here have responded very differently. Everyone reporting has started with full doses and reported no trouble. I’m starting to realize that our oxidative stress is different from those on phoenixrising.org, which are more chronic fatgue related… which seems to stem from some internal source of oxidative stress… there is a lot of research posted on their main site around the immune system and estrogen metabolism.

Couple of notes on the protocol post:

The best way to take B12 (methyl, adenosyl or hydroxy - cobalamin): A sublingual in the upper lip (I do low lip sometimes) and retain for 45 minutes or until dissolved. This has been shown to be as good as injections. Ingested B12 is considered to be negligible absorption. Although intrinsic factor in the supplement does help.

Omega 3s/Fish Oil: Under oxidative stress the cell membranes get beat up. From what I’ve read, its good to supplement fats.

bryce54, I had the same question because so far the 23andMe data I’ve seen had a lot more in it. But bluejaysfan was quoting another poster from another forum.

Guys, check out the below study I found. In my opinion this may be the Rosetta Stone to our problems. This study names all the key elements we have been circling the wagons with, progesterone receptor, myelination and neuro protectice effects, and of course finasteride!!! All of this is found in this 2012 study! What do we know? We know that a study took place and was discussed in February where three patients who had sexual dysfunction on going had reduced 5ar metabolites of progesterone. This is the smoking gun I believe. I have also previously posted studies where researchers on PURPOSE use finasteride to destroy the protective effects of progesterone. Interestingly enough this study mentions the therapeutic use of TSPO Ligands to increase allopregenalone in the brain.

Again this is the first study I have found that sort of contain all the theories we have been juggling with. Myelination, progesterone / allopregenalone in the brain, a reference to finasteride’s use in destroying neurons in the hippocampus (which progesterone 5ar metabolites were increased to reduce such death)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274763/

Here is my regimen :

  • Early morning : B12 (in my upper lip) + TMG + Selenium +Zinc + Magnesium
    -Breakfast : Folate-rich food (Spinach, Spearmint leaves, Asparagus - i do not have active Folate at the moment)
    -Afternoon : 200mg NAC before lunch + Vit. D3 +Alpha Lipoic Acid
    -Before bed : 200mg NAC (usually after dinner).

For me, NAC is a savior. I tried dosing with 200 mg for 2-3 days as opposed to 400mg . On the night of the 2nd day i opened my eyes at around 4am but -luckily- went back to sleep. Then the next day i got up at 6:30 am but couldn’t get to sleep. These were just some warning signs and i went back to 400 mgs of NAC daily.

What worries me is that even though i take supplements to boost my methylation cycle (apart from active folate which as discussed i dont have at the moment) it seems that NAC does all the job. Of course, i will have to try Active Folate and then make any conclusions.

Here’s a good lecture on what Methylation is.

vimeo.com/53599834

It doesn’t talk about glutathione or oxidative stress (touches on OS in testing section), but it has as good description of what methylation is.