Droit, I do believe that this is happening to us, I just think the triggering event is destruction or imbalance of progesterone receptor, which incidentally also causes oxidative stress.
One important thing we must ALL realize, is this condition can occur from a single, even .25 of a 1mg dose of Finasteride. What happened to us, HAS to happen with immediate contact of finasteride and something else.
droit, do you have health problems from using Finasteride, or do you have CFS? Or something else?
Why would you take a CFS âfringe theoryâ and apply it here? It is well established that CFS and PFS symptoms are totally different.
Feel free to read the entire topic. Everything is explained in there in detail.
Hardly. Anyway, here is why youâre all wrong.
If you think Chris Kesser is a good source of information stop reading here.
âŚ
Firstly understand, PFS and CFS symptoms are totally different. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2261&start=700&hilit=cfs#p43640
Despite this, lets look at the 2 reasons given to stitch this CFS fringe theory to PFS.
droit supports his theory by stating Oxidative Stress down-regulates the Androgen Receptor viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7178&p=73361&hilit=+post#p73361
When actually the androgen receptor is UP-regulated in the tests that have been carried out in genital skin. So thatâs wrong.
droit supports his theory by stating oxidative stress means less methylation and this will lead to less AR âactivityâ. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7178&start=60#p71331
Less methylation actually means Increased gene expression. There is an intricate balance between all the epigenetic mechanisms in AR signalling, including methylation and demethylation, not just one enzyme âSET9â. Also, PSA can be tested to see if this is working.
That is all!
(p.s. the same people that sell the tests for these fringe theories also promote these fringe theories. What a brilliant business plan!)
Accutane effects on the Methylation Cycle
It would be controversial to suggest the persistant effects of Accutane are the same as Finasteride. At some point Awor noted that Accutane is a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor (although this relationship may have matured in either direction)
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4541#p38623
Iâm not close to that investigation and I am not suggesting there is any relationship, but I wanted to post interesting and highly relevant research on the effects of Accutane and the methylation cycle.
I want to stress that the theory we have been long discussing in this thread is not predicated on the accutane research. But the results of this research plays so well into what weâve observed in the Methylation Panels. And if applicable to us, it would certainly fill in some gaps and answer the question of why I canât get my Methylation Metabolites into Range.
What is Glycine N-Methyltransferase
In addition to our typical Methylation Cycle enzymes (MTHFR, BHMT, CBS, etc) there is another enzyme called Glycine N-Methyltransferase (GNMT) which regulates the ratio of SAMe to SAH.
When functioning normally, basically prevents SAMe from getting too high and keeps the methylation cycle running by converting SAMe to SAH, which can then go to homocysteine instead of staying stuck at SAMe should SAMe not be needed to methylate anything.
It does this by pulling the methyl-group off of SAMe and putting it on the amino acid Gycine which makes Sarcosine.
What does Accutane do to GNMT
The research I am citing clearly says Accutane turns this gene perpetually on thus draining off SAMe. I would guess no matter what you do when you are in this state, you wouldnât be able to get SAMe up.
The papers cited in #1 and 2 say that when this enzyme is turned on, the Methylation Cycle metabolites get disrupted in the same way weâve always talked about (they donât look at glutathione as far as Iâve seen).
I often post about treating the methylation cycle with B12 and Folate, but this would be a different force that would need to be treated. If the enzyme were persistently hyperactive, it would be tough to overcome without the right intervention.
If this were true for us, what we would see in our labs?
The a disrupted pattern of the methylation cycle metobolites, as we are seeing in the Methylation Panel, which may included high SAH and low SAMe. Toadstool is the anomaly in that heâs low in everything, but there may be genetic reasons for that.
You would see low glycine and high Sarcosine (at least not low Sarcosine) amino acids. You would see this pattern certainly during the crazy but as SAMe depletes the pattern may not be as apparent. This enzyme needs glycine and SAMe. So its reasonable that we would see this pattern of low glycine and high Sarcosine, but depending SAMe levels it may not be as apparent.
Let me know if you have a lab with Sarcosine and Glycine levels. Also let us know what the circumstances were at the time of the test. As I suggested, we may have some false negatives given SAMe levels. I have very very low glycine per an Amino Acid test, but havenât taken a test that measures Sarcosine.
How would one treat this?
Everything weâve talked about previously remains true.
We would want to turn this enzyme down. It seems this enzyme is inhibited by Methyl-folate (the stuff we are already taking but presumably in too low a dose).
Here is a quote form citation #2.
Citations 5 and 6 are the ones that did this research.
So if this gene is on in us and we take high dose Methyl-folate, will it turn off?
I havenât looked at the dosing in any of the papers. But thereâs a prescription methyl-folate for depression called Deplin. Its 15mg of methyl-folate. The Methylation Protocols only advocate for 800 mcg.
âAll-trans-Retinoic Acid Rapidly Induces Glycine N-methyltransferase in a Dose-Dependent Manner and Reduces Circulating Methionine and Homocysteine Levels in Rats,â nutrition.highwire.org/content/133/12/4090.full
âRetinoic Acid and Glucocorticoid Treatment Induce Hepatic Glycine N-Methyltransferase and Lower Plasma Homocysteine Concentrations in Rats and Rat Hepatoma Cells,â jn.nutrition.org/content/133/11/3392.full
âActivation and induction of glycine N-methyltransferase by retinoids are tissue- and gender-specific,â ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12054489
âDecreased plasma folate concentration in young and elderly healthy subjects after a short-term supplementation with isotretinoin,â onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ⌠ated=false
âInhibition of glycine N-methyltransferase by folate derivatives: implications for regulation of methyl group metabolism,â sciencedirect.com/science/ar ⌠1X85800061
âPhosphorylation modulates the activity of glycine N-methyltransferase, a folate binding protein. In vitro phosphorylation is inhibited by the natural ligand,â jbc.org/content/264/16/9638.full.pdf
Droit,
If i understand correctly then, Retinoic Acid is bad for us? If this is what you are suggesting here then i can definitely say that my neurological side effects skyrocketed whenever i supplemented myself with Vitamin A (Retinoic Acid is a metabolite of Vitamin A).
Regarding Metafolin, at one point i ended up taking 5 tabs (=3200 mcg) per day and from what i can recall, it never affected me negatively in any way. All along from the start it was Methyl/ Hydroxy B12 that was causing me problems.
Coffee enemas increase Glutatione S-transferase 600% in the liver and 700% in the small intestine.
http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1347056
cold showers also increase glutathione
I would like to chime in here as I have started taking methyl-B12 and methylfolate, once daily and from the first day I noticed improvements!
My story is way too long so I wont go into it here, but I knew that this theory could be on the correct path because I took Fin for almost 7 years and around year 4 I was very fatigued and somewhat brain-fogged and I started taking Folic Acid + B12 without knowing that Fin was the culprit of my symptoms⌠I can tell you that taking Folic Acid and B12 turned my life around, gave me energy and the mental prowess to enrol in graduate school and do well. It helped me a great deal with socializing/personality.
Fast forward to present time. I stopped taking Fin after I started feeling debilitating fatigue, brain fog, anxiety, etc and finding this siteâŚNeedless to say i crashed and the Folic ACid+B12 did not help much anymore.
I stumbled upon this thread and ordered the Folate and B12 supplements that Bluejays fan has listed. Immediately after the first day, my ejaculate volume increased and my mind felt clearer. This trend continued and was very promising. I started smoking weed again because I thought I was cured and I happened to find myself around it. I think a few days of continuos marjuana use has set me back to the place I was before this protocol. But I will go back to clean living and exercising, and I think that I will reap the benefits of Folate+B12 in no time. My biggest symptoms are fatigue, mental sides (verbal fluency), anxiety, socializing and reduced ejaculate volume.
Last weekend was the happiest I have felt in several years. I was effectively cured. My mind was sharp, I had my quick wit and sense of humour back, and my personality was like before. There is something here in this theory. I SAY THIS NOT BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD BUT RATHER BECAUSE I WAS SAVED BY B12 AND FOLATE BEFORE FIN TOTALLY RUINED ME. Then two weeks ago I stumbled upon this thread and decided to order the supplements again, but this time the correct for of B12. And it worked for me until I ruined my gains with marijuana use.
Hang in there gentlemen⌠I sense a light at the end of this dark tunnel.
Hey, good to hear about that. I hope you get the benefits back strong again in no time. Iâm similar to you in finding my old selfsâ brain again. Funny, happy, more outgoing, more energy, quicker thinking, etc.
I canât promise or donât promise a cure to pfs⌠I can just say what and how methylation has helped me and hope someone else benefits too.
I look forward to these posts or more ideas from Droit.
Bluejays fan⌠what side effects still persist for you after this treatment? My sides are almost entirely cognitive, and I have seen great improvements since starting this protocol. I think that with healthy living, a good diet and the supplements prescribed here, I can overcome the mental sides and get back where I was a few years ago. Also, I found it interesting that my orgasms were stronger (noticed this the very first day) and my flaccid penis grew back to its original size. Therefore, I noticed that both physical and mental sides improved with this approach. My question for you is what sides have improved and what sides persist? I want to compare your progress with mine, if that is ok with you.
Sure.
I always start by saying I certainly didnât have the severe brain fog some get in here. The sides that I had and went away from what I think was due to B12/folate were:
Lousy sleep or feeling like I didnât get enough. Exhausted upon waking.
Feeling like I had no energy all day. Falling asleep on the couch after dinner.
Mentally, just felt like I didnât laugh or make others laugh like I use to.
Didnât have the quick responses like before propecia.
Not as much focus, concentration, but, passable.
My erections not as hard as before.
Erect penis not as full in size.
All the above are now gone. I can function fine, as is. The feeling of being tired all day was so nice to get rid of. Iâm not negative, Iâm laughing lots, friendly, happy. I really think the B12/folate worked for me in those areas greatly.
Erections seem as hard as they can be. Normal. Penis size normal when erect. I can have sex easily enough.
The lingering problems are penis sensitivity and delayed ejaculation/orgasm. I have had periods if where this is better briefly, but, not consistantly. I also have very minor issues with dry-ish skin on my face. The odd red spot behind my ears, from eczema I guess.
If I get the sensitivity back to normal, Iâm sure the delayed ejaculations will go away.
I feel like short term improvements may seem stalled, but, i could still be healing long term.
When did you switch over from 2 B12 and Metafolin a day to just one a day? I think taking two helps me more but most days I only take one⌠how long before you switched over to one dose a day and how quickly did you notice gains? Was it right away or did it gradually build up over time?
I donât think I gained new benefits when I lowered the dose, just held steady. I looked back for an approximate time when I started this and I believe it was around Sept/12. Results happened fast.
Here is a link to my post in the treatment thread. Might be easier to sift through for a comparison of what and how much guys are taking.
âŚSo here is why i felt really bad with Vitamin A :
From the book TextBook of Natural Medicine (Elsevier) :
I bet my two cents that all of those here having an MTHFR mutation will feel much worse if they take Vitamin A.
Note also that i have tried Vitamin A in conjunction with Vit D3 in the past with some initially positive results but i ended up feeling much worse after some time.
Just got my shipment of the items ordered by bluejaysfan. Will report back.
nbcnews.com/health/stop-sell ⌠2D11650789
I hope this is not the case and the discoveries in this thread are true.
All i can Say Costa is that the Methylation regimen has definitely changed how i feel. I must have tested more than 40 different supplements in the past 5-6 years before seeing any result. However i also believe that Methylation is NOT the only culprit in PFS there is definitely something going on with P450 Cytochrome (at least for my case). More on this later.
Hi,
Background -28 year old male
I have suffered from dysthymia most of my life. I have tried all kinds of supplements to combat the issue, SAM-E, St Johns, Uridine, P-5-P, rhodiola, you name it.
A year and a half ago I had alot of bloodwork tests done because I was having issues with energy and light headedness when standing. The various tests all came back normal except one marker, UREA which was elevated to 29. The doctors told me to try an eat more carbs and drink more water. A half year later UREA came in at 28, so not a huge improvement but not worsening, so again they told me to try more water and they did not suspect anything serious since all other markers were healthy.
So I got sick of doctors with no answers and used a whole host of different supplements aimed at everything from anxiety to dopamine. Again nothing really worked, I eventually quit all supplements, but still had the symptoms.
I then decided to âkeep it simpleâ only taking a multi and extra selenium. Then a few weeks ago I thought I would try kidney glandular.
To my surprise ever since I have noticed some beneficial things
My libido is higher then its been in a long time, probably in my early teens because even in my later teens my libido started going down.
My dysthymia is easing, I am noticing driving I am enjoying the tunes instead of feeling down about whatever I am driving to. I feel more social.
Body body seems to be more âwarmâ not to the point of feeling uneasy but rather I think before I was always a bit on the cold side.
My urine seems to flow better, before it seems like it took more effort, I never noticed it before as I never knew anything else, but now I can tell a difference.
My circulation is better, especialy in my joints like my knees, I was starting to get slight aches but now my joints feel like there is a warm cushion to them, I feel like they could take on more strenuous tasks if needed.
My hunger is higher, I feel like my body is burning more calories. For a while I literally was never hungry, I simply ate because it was time to eat and I knew I should.
The only âside effectâ I have had is it seems it takes a bit longer to fall asleep, but I attribute this to my body not being uised to this new energy I feel.
I am not sure what the numbers will say when I get urea tested but seems I feel alot better overall then I have in many years, actually starting to enjoy life more.
My theory is that everyones focus with kidneys is if they are excreting enough waste products. But another function of kidneys when they are optimal is to retain the right nutrients. There are many people with kidney disease who need to be on thyroid meds, not necessarily because their thyroid donât work but because the kidneys flush to much thyroid out the urine. So perhaps my body is retaining more hormones, more hormones often means better quality of life.
The Chinese believe the kidneys are the fountain of youth and where our life essence. I think too many supplements are simply a diuretic and donât really strengthen kidney function.
I know my post was long but thought maybe someone out there who struggles may find it interesting and worth a try as its pretty inexpensive. I am wondering if this will continue to last or wear off, but I think it may last. It doesnât feel like I am getting a âhighâ like I did with SAMe, rather it feels like my body is starting to just work better overall.
swansonvitamins.com/swanson- ⌠mg-60-caps
has anyone tried this?? its only five buckâŚI dont see how it could hurt givin it a try.
braziliandude,
I am happy for you success. However, this is not the place for this post. I think it would make sense to create your own thread or find one that is more related.
Braziliandude and others- I have had all those benefits as time goes on without taking a damn thing. This condition improves over time, and for us and researchers not to realize it is detrimental in figuring it out