Ihatepropecia also practiced calorie restriction and he also used proviron (DHT) a number of times.
i didnt know he did that. are there any negative reports you can think of from using this? i’m going to do some digging into this. i def. experienced high estrogen, this could maybe be one of those final puzzle pieces if you have all the methylation stuff in working order.
I’ll stress that 1) there are a lot of variables in that recovery and 2) I am not advocating for the use of androgens. I am just opening the discussion to see if there are patterns in the other recoveries, which also tend to have several variables.
Per my above notes on cdnuts’ recovery, I had a short PM correspondence with cdnuts specifically on the B-Complex. I wanted to determine whether or not his B-Complex was relevant to this thread. It turned out it was. I am reposting with his permission.
Reply from cdnuts
Good detective work droit. Good to know he had this in mind.
I’ve added another dataset to the genetic data spreadsheet under anonXXX (an alias this user wanted):
This person is interesting because he is the longest term user in our dataset. 8 years, which is a year longer than me. And I think its clear in the integrity of his dataset. He has the signature all three BHMT mutations, a homozygous MTHFR and some other problems upfront, but not bad as the short term users.
The most interesting thing is the contrast between AnonXXX’s data and the short term users. MerryChristmas is right next to his column.
MerryChristmas only took 10 pills compared to AnonXXX’s nearly 3,000 and the genetic differences a stark. They both have the same MTHFR double mutations, but MerryChristmas has all homozygous mutations on the BHMTs, while AnonXXX’s only has single mutations at each sight.
Also, MerryChristmas has the dreaded CBS mutation that seems to have a high frequency in our dataset.
Yasko says BHMT mutations have the same effect as CBS, which is the drain on the methylation cycle. There not a lot of good data on that A360A CBS mutation, but CBS is regulated by androgens, so I think it is going to be import.
The most confusing thing about AnonXXX, is his lab results. He has had a handful of tests that have indirect indicators of glutathione and the methylation cycle, and he’s not a clear case.
Indicators of a good Methylation cycle
-8-OHdG and Lipid Peroxides are low, suggesting low oxidative stress
-CoQ10 is very good, which is something made by the methylation cycle.
At the same time he has compelling indictors of depleted Glutathione.
-Very Low Pyroglutamic Acid, which is a marker of glutathione depletion.
-Krebs cycle is definitely shut down
-Formiminoglutamic Acid (figlu) is high, which means low on active folate.
-Methionine is low: 4 (0-37). This is the starting material for the methylation cycle.
-Cystathionine is low: 1.3 (0-57). This is the first breakdown product of homocysteine down the transulfuration pathway on the way to Glutathione.
Low Methionine means low raw materials for the methylation cycle. Low Cystathionine suggests not a lot of glutathione is being produced. Together these values suggest methylation cycle problems.
The thing that pollutes this data is this PFSer has been very aggressive in his treatment. While testing he was on ‘extensive powder vitamin formulations’ and other stuff that has been successful on this forum. So some of these values may be in range because he’s treating the indirect factors.
This person is getting a Methylation Pathway Panel so we’ll know for sure.
Droit,
Thanks for the excel spreadsheet. Could you also add the 23andme data for the detox data as well or is this is not necessary at this point?
I haven’t written for a long time so here is a quick update but i will write a more detailed one once i have some results :
My neurological side effects are almost completely gone. In terms of how i feel i can swear that Forskolin is responsible in stopping all of my Brain Fog, Numb arms and “the unconnected penis” sensation. Dosage 100 mg of active Forskolin in the morning.
I stopped GABA because it made me anorgasmic, i really hope that this is only temporary (…) I found a paper that stated that GABA had this side effect (anorgasmia) to elderly patients so no GABA anymore for me Gents, just Magnesium.
I will write back soon.
I would say this is a top 10 most important paper I’ve seen related to this theory and PFS:
“Expressions of cystathionine-beta-synthase and cystathionine-gamma-lyase in the corpus cavernosum smooth muscle of castrated rats”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23926675
I emailed the author to get the full paper, but he’s in China and the original article is in Chinese. If anyone can help me reach an author and can help me get an english version, please let me know.
Just a bit of an update. I started to take a lot of capsules (3/day) of curcumin for a little over a week or so. I didn’t feel much in terms of inflammation, so I stopped… And I stopped taking a fish oil, too. Just wanted to see how I’d do on the B12/ methylfolate and the new multi with all active ingredients.
It’s been a really great last week and a half or so since. I have had what feels like a doubling of sensitivity in my penis. Orgasms are no longer hard to reach… and they feel normal. I was thinking that alone was good enough to report… But, lately I can feel the connection from prostate to penis coming back. This is enabling for easier erections or even semi’s driving in my car just thinking sexual thoughts.
I don’t know why exactly I’ve had the improvement… If its a rebound effect from stopping the curcumin (which I was concerned about as I said in earlier posts)… But, I do know for an absolute fact that since getting on methylcobalamin and methylfolate I have had significant improvement in: all aspects of sleep quality, mental sharpness, mood, energy levels, erection hardness, time to reach orgasms, sensitivity and that feeling of connection to penis from the prostate.
I didn’t try a million different things. My thing was methylation. I was very happy to see the latest study including genetics. I think Droit is dead on with why we are being burned by propecia. It’s too bad everyone here didn’t do that 23andme test. It’s only $99 and regardless of propecia, it can tell you if you have potential health risks that you might be able to avoid.
If you look at Droits’ charts you will see we all have mutations in methylation somewhere down the line.
I think the data on methylation labs or methylation analysis deserves a separate thread and I encourage everyone to see if they too have mutations with methylation.
I’ve always thought to myself that penis sensitivity will be the toughest thing to get back (this is for me personally and I know full well there are guys with very serious mental issues that are certainly there single most important problem to solve).
To anyone currently trying this, I think if you feel any improvement you are on the right track and you do not need higher dosing. It’s not going to happen overnight, be patient.
I was telling Droit in a pm, for the first time I can honestly say I think I will fully recover. I’ll be down to dry-ish skin and intermittent inflammation, if this penis sensitivity-prostate-brain connection keeps on keeping on. Fingers crossed.
Just in case it’s lost in the thread… Here’s what I’m taking… Or in the case of curcumin and fish oil, what I recently took and stopped, but, may take again if improvement should not keep coming.
A.M.:
1 methylfolate
CA.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-As-Me … lets/13961
1 methylcobalamin B12 under top lip
CA.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-B … blets/2119
About 20-30 minutes later with breakfast:
1 Multi
CA.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Best- … Caps/50548
Dinner:
1 methyfolate
1 B12
Not currently taking any longer:
CA.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Curcumin-60-Vcaps/307
CA.iherb.com/Natural-Factors-RxO … tgels/4251
I have been sitting on a neurotransmitter test that shows very low Epinephine and very low serotonin.
In the context of this thread (persistent oxidative stress), I do understand the very low Epinephine because SAMe is required to make it by adding a methyl-group - which is depleted in the methylation cycle block.
rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem … pineph.gif
But I’ve never looked into why Serotonin would be effected based on the theory presented in this thread.
Warbler also reported the same pattern of very low serotonin
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4481#p32267
Tryptophan hydroxylase is the enzyme that converts Tryptophan to 5-HTP, which further gets converted to Serotonin, and then melotonin.
There is extensive research showing that this enzyme is inactive in the presence of oxidative stress, thus rate limiting the production of 5-HTP/Serotonin (2,3).
“Although mechanisms resulting in these deficits remain unclear, METH administration promotes formation of ROS which likely contribute to impairment of monoamine systems, such as the rapid and reversible decrease in activity of TPH (Tryptophan hydroxylase) observed after a single high dose of METH.”
From there, I haven’t gotten into dopamine, but there is clear research that shows dopamine transporter, is destroyed by oxidative stress (peroxynitrite).
-
“Molecular Mechanism of the Inactivation of Tryptophan
Hydroxylase by Nitric Oxide: Attack on Critical Sulfhydryls that
Spare the Enzyme Iron Center,” jneurosci.org/content/17/19/7245.full.pdf -
“The Effects of Methamphetamine on the Production of Free Radicals and Oxidative Stress,” jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/287/1/107.full
-
“Acute inactivation of tryptophan hydroxylase by amphetamine analogs involves the oxidation of sulfhydryl sites,” maps.org/publications/1989_stone_1.pdf
-
“Rapid and Reversible Effects of Methamphetamine on Dopamine Transporters,” jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/282/2/834.full
-
“Peroxynitrite Inactivates the Human Dopamine Transporter by Modification of Cysteine 342: Potential Mechanism of Neurotoxicity in Dopamine Neurons,” jneurosci.org/content/22/11/4399.long
Is there any way that the genetics study at Baylor will be able to incorporate the methylation cycle?
-Curcumin is an inhibitor of CYP11A1 which i believe is affected by Finasteride.
-How much methylfolate are you taking? I dropped TMG and Phosphatidylserine because i found that MethylFolate 2400 mcg daily works best for me (i have homozygous mutation on the MTHFR)
I take 2 of the solgar tabs per day… 800mcg each… and there is a little in the multi, 133mcg I think.
I dabbled in the tmg and sunflower lecithin briefly and thought it was too much for me, as well. I’ve come to realize if I feel I’m moving forward, I dont need to increase doses… and I think I’m going in the right direction… and would say I’m at my perfect dose, even.
A couple of people have messaged me about how to test for the dysfunction described in this thread. So it is helpful to have a test result showing that this is issue for a person in terms of helping to commit to the protocol. Particularly if you feel worst before you feel better, as in the case often on the forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php. So I’ll post a review of what the test is. Here are the details.
Methylation Pathways Panel is a blood test which shows you what your glutathione (oxidized), glutathione (reduced), S-adenosyl-methionine (RBC), S-adenosylhomocysteine (RBC), 7 of the folates from the folate cycle and adenosine.
According to people in the CFS community, this test will give you a crystal clear picture of whether or not you have a methylation cycle block or depleted glutathione.
The test has to be ordered by a health care provider. I recommend calling the lab finding out if there are providers in your area already ordering the test.
Once you get the test, you take the kit to your local place that does blood draws. Labs call the service ‘phlebotomy.’ Most hospitals do a free blood draw then will put the kit in the mail So the easiest would be to see if you can get a handful of providers and call to see who has the easiest process. You may have one in your area with a lab. Here is the lab phone number:
732-721-1234
hdri-usa.com/tests/methylation/
As I’ve said, my results were worst than the women in the chronic fatigue trial documented here:
maartensz.org/me/RESOURCES/N … upport.PDF
You can also buy the test online, but it is $100 more expensive from this provider.
seekinghealth.com/methylatio … stics.html
If you decide to try the protocol, work with a provider in your area, but the general wisdom from here and the other sites is to go slow! Take some time to work yourself up to full doses. Also, many have needed potassium (either from coconut water or bananas).
There is a discussion on this here:
Droit,
How has this protocol been working for you? Have you been eating healthy and exercising while doing it? You’ve been doing it for almost a year now correct? Did you ever fast? Can you please update us since you’ve been on this the longest and probably know the most about it among the forum members.
It seems like a good time to re-post the paper that got this whole thread started off.
The Effect of Different Doses of Finasteride on Sperm Morphology and Motility and Reactive Oxygen Species Concentrations in Rats
Just saw that tonight Droit.
That’s right.
Droit,
Could you tell us how you feel while being in the protocol? How is your libido / erections?