Finasteride and Neurological Damage

#21

No he didn’t, but I already made a post about that near beginning of thread:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 4039#14039

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#22

I highly doubt drugs will be able fix damage to the central nervous system. If this is in fact the case, you must live as healthy as possible and hope the body fixes the damage. The body does the healing, not the drugs.

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#23

If I have tested positive on a 5AR2 function test (through Adiol-G maybe), can I be sure it also works on THP (allopregnanolone)? Or is there a possibility for it to work halfly (for example: produce DHT from T, but not THP from PROG)? Are there unrecoverable parts of the 5AR2 function or does it work as a whole?

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#24

thank you Mew,the only link that i miss is why many of us have no hairloss after finasteride,if it was only a myelin problem and nerves problem,hair should fall out,but they don’t so maybe we are still having problems cause the real root is a 5AR deficient/mutation… correct me if i 'm wrong !

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#25

Ummmm, my hair is falling out like gangbusters. Not sure if that puts a hole in that theory…

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#26

My hair is also still falling out. Not sure why it’s not in your specific case.

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#27

in mycase right now they are falling but they started to fall out something like 3 mouths ago and i quit the drug almost 4 years ago,so in my case i’d say that something is missing at the appeal…and many guys had a stop of hairloss even if they ae not taking the drug anymore…i really hope his theory is the root of our problems at all !!!

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#28

becaus of this theory today i ve started my new protocol on progesterone 5mg per day ,i want to see what happens .

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#29

Another post by Alex:


I’m back here. Nobody managed to invalidate the theory yet…

Yesterday I had a talk with a professor for neuroendocrinology regarding this issue. It was only a short talk though. Interestingly enough, he knew right away about finasteride acting as a neurosteroid inhibitor in humans and was totally against using it for hair loss. I wanted to present him my findings but he didn’t have time and said: “You know, there are still many things not so clear about finasteride. I can’t help you anyway. You can come to visit me again in a month or two when I’ll have more time.” I wouldn’t count on him though.

@Fanjeera:

I am pretty convinced that 5AR2 is an enzyme acting as a whole, which means that if DHT is produced, then this implies that the neurosteroids are also produced. I think the functionality of the enzyme itself is not the main problem here but the effects of 5AR2-inhibiton over a longer time period is because the healing process is inhibited by finasteride. See, it’s like wounding your arm, then the body tries to heal itself in a natural way but you always scratch off the scab. If this is done for a long time then you’ll have a scar for life which never goes away. The same thing happend in the spinal cord but in a microscopic scale. That “scar” there won’t go away no matter how active 5AR2 is.

Another point: you can’t draw any real conclusions about 5AR2 activity based on hair loss. This is not how it works. Hair loss is just an indicator but not proof. But as I said, in my opinion 5AR2 activity is not the neurological problem I am talking about.


Now: What should someone do who is permanently affected by finasteride use and has strong indicators that the problem is a neurological one (e.g. he has a normal hormonal balance but still suffers sexual dysfunction/cognitive dysfunction/MS-symptoms/forgetfulness)?

First of all, he should confirm that selective demyelination actually did take place. But this is not a normal demyelination test. In a normal test, mainly the white matter is tested but the white matter is not affected by finasteride, so the normal test might come back fine although in fact you aren’t fine.


You need a more specific test for demyelination:

Tell the doctor/neurologist that you want to test for demyelination in the following grey matter regions of the spinal chord (this is done by MRI=Magnetic Resonance Imaging): Anterior horn, lateral horn and posterior horn.

Then, if demyelination occured, you can only hope that it is curable. This can’t be cured by medications though. Best thing to do is cure it by boosting neurosteroid production using a few supplements I list below. I have seen on propeciahelp.com that people are using progestrone but personally I don’t think this is a good idea because progesterone levels are not the problem here but damage to the neurons is. Your body produces enough progesterone when it needs it.

Now to the supplements which help with myelination:

[b]- One tea spoon of Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4) dissolved in a cup of water. This substance has been shown to help with myelination. You can get it in a drugstore.

The Magnesium Sulfate is the most important one. There are several studies that show it helps with myelination after spinal cord injury. These studies have even shown that it helps with myelination in exactly thos parts of the spinal cord.

If you are interesting in such a study see www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour … 1&SRETRY=0 .

But be careful. It can have a negative effect on your kidney. Talk through this with your doctor before you use it.

Final note: If you are suffering from the damage described in this thread, it can take a long time until you eventually recover. Never ever give up! I wish all those suffering a successful recovery.


Posted by Alex Miller

@Fanjeera:

You should better deduce facts about 5AR activity by measuring DHT in your blood rather than hair loss. As I said before, hair loss is just an indicator (and not a good one) but not proof.

@MikeYan1:

Magnesium sulfate has already been taken orally by humans. Now, I don’t say It doesn’t have side effects, it certainly has. This is why I said that one should first do a specific demyelination test, and after demyelination has been confirmed, he can consider using magnesium sulfate after consulting a doctor. I am not a doctor. Use it at your own risk. I just wanted to tell that it could help with recovering damaged nerves in the spinal cord as shown in numerous studies.

@4cryingoutloud:

Bryan gave you the answer. The point is that 5AR inhibitors are not a good method for reducing DHT since 5AR have other functions besides T->DHT conversion. Castration doesn’t inhibit 5AR.

@Everyone reading this:

People are sending me PMs about their side effects. Some of them really quit their job, lost their social life and are suffering from heavy brain fog. They claim it’s a result of 5AR inhibiting hair loss products. I’m telling this because you might want to weight this fact into the decision of whether you take finasteride for hair loss or not.

Now, I am done here for the good. I said what I wanted to say and hope it was of help to some people. I am considering moving to propeciahelp.com. You can expect me there once I have more spare time. But I want you to know that I am not a doctor and not the “messiah” (as MikeYan1 said) who is going to cure you -> I just give information about facts and try to help with my knowledge.

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#30

Just a note here:

Magnesium Sulfate is the same stuff in Epsom salts (ie, for baths) and is used as a laxative, amongst other things.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_sulfate
drugs.com/pro/magnesium-sulfate.html

As Alex notes, any use of such subtances is at your own risk. If anyone reading this is considerng taking it, PLEASE CONSULT WITH A DOCTOR.

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#31

What foods provide magnesium?
Green vegetables such as spinach are good sources of magnesium because the center of the chlorophyll molecule (which gives green vegetables their color) contains magnesium. Some legumes (beans and peas), nuts and seeds, and whole, unrefined grains are also good sources of magnesium [5]. Refined grains are generally low in magnesium [4-5]. When white flour is refined and processed, the magnesium-rich germ and bran are removed. Bread made from whole grain wheat flour provides more magnesium than bread made from white refined flour. Tap water can be a source of magnesium, but the amount varies according to the water supply. Water that naturally contains more minerals is described as “hard”. “Hard” water contains more magnesium than “soft” water.

Eating a wide variety of legumes, nuts, whole grains, and vegetables will help you meet your daily dietary need for magnesium. Selected food sources of magnesium are listed in Table 1.

Table 1: Selected food sources of magnesium [5]
FOOD Milligrams (mg) %DV*
Halibut, cooked, 3 ounces 90 20
Almonds, dry roasted, 1 ounce 80 20
Cashews, dry roasted, 1 ounce 75 20
Soybeans, mature, cooked, ½ cup 75 20
Spinach, frozen, cooked, ½ cup 75 20
Nuts, mixed, dry roasted, 1 ounce 65 15
Cereal, shredded wheat, 2 rectangular biscuits 55 15
Oatmeal, instant, fortified, prepared w/ water, 1 cup 55 15
Potato, baked w/ skin, 1 medium 50 15
Peanuts, dry roasted, 1 ounce 50 15
Peanut butter, smooth, 2 Tablespoons 50 15
Wheat Bran, crude, 2 Tablespoons 45 10
Blackeyed Peas, cooked, ½ cup 45 10
Yogurt, plain, skim milk, 8 fluid ounces 45 10
Bran Flakes, ½ cup 40 10
Vegetarian Baked Beans, ½ cup 40 10
Rice, brown, long-grained, cooked, ½ cup 40 10
Lentils, mature seeds, cooked, ½ cup 35 8
Avocado, California, ½ cup pureed 35 8
Kidney Beans, canned, ½ cup 35 8
Pinto Beans, cooked, ½ cup 35 8
Wheat Germ, crude, 2 Tablespoons 35 8
Chocolate milk, 1 cup 33 8
Banana, raw, 1 medium 30 8
Milk Chocolate candy bar, 1.5 ounce bar 28 8
Milk, reduced fat (2%) or fat free, 1 cup 27 8
Bread, whole wheat, commercially prepared, 1 slice 25 6
Raisins, seedless, ½ cup packed 25 6
Whole Milk, 1 cup 24 6
Chocolate Pudding, 4 ounce ready-to-eat portion 24 6

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#32

this is still a good theory but , does demyelization cause shrinkage ,smaller testicles , numb penis ,smaller eiaculation and all the other sexual sides ??? i can image it helps about nerves and than erections but how can it affect the shrinkage or smaller penis etc…???

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#33

about boosting neurosteroid production,it’s done by GHB !

…more when Alex talk about magnesium solfate , what is it? is it the same of magnesium supplement i can buy ? i mean “normal” magnesium is the same of sulfate magnesium ?

thanks

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#34

Mg definitely doesn’t equal MgSO4.

You’re problem should be reflected in your hormone tests, because it’s not neurological. Shrinkage and other bodily changes should be caused by lack of androgen.

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#35

so this theory for our problems is halfway true … i don’t have shrinkage small balls etc but i 've ed .

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#36

Sexual dysfunction can be from nerve damage, and I think that would include shrinkage. But we demonstrate distinct characteristics of lacking androgen benefits (such as increased fat, muscle wastage, etc). Personally I can tell when my balls are working, and they’re pretty dormant during the worst of this. So again, I don’t believe this is the whole story - though I’m unsure if nerves have a big role in endocrinology.

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#37

Hey everybody,

regarding sexual sides, like ed, i’m wondering why their is only a selective demyelinisation of the visceral motoneurons which are controlling erection. There doesnt seem to be any influence on somatic motoneurons, otherwise we couldnt walk anymore. And if its only affecting visceral motoneurons, there should be other sides like incontinence or urinary retention. Comments appreciated.

greetz
elvis

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#38

Posted by Alex:


@beenthere: Side effects after quitting are probably because of a crash of the endocrine system (=> a hormonal problem) and not the neurological problem I was talking about in this thread. Of course, I can’t say this for sure because I don’t know what happens to the 5AR2 neurosteroid synthesis after quitting finasteride therapy. I have seen many people say it started/got worse for them after quitting.

Another thing:

I have now read through a part of propeciahelp.com and came across the official transcript of the FDA meeting held on Novermber 12, 1997. This is for all you guys who still say finasteride users are the same as pseudohermaphrodites or say that neurosteroid inhibition doesn’t take place.

I quote from the official transcript (part of Doctor Ko’s speech):
fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/97/ … 3352t1.rtf

“At this point, I would just like to remind you that finasteride, the molecule, is a steroid-like molecule, and it may have steroid-like properties. And again, as Dr. Wilkin had addressed earlier this point, the presence of finasteride is not the same as the absence of 5-alpha-Reductase II enzyme, because you have an extra pharmacologic agent present; and that 5-alpha-Reductase II is not an enzyme that is specific just for conversion of testosterone. It has other steroid hormonal substrates which are possible, and included in that would be progesterone; you can have 5-alpha-Dihydroprogesterone, and in one of the recent publications, it is known that dihydroprogesterone, the effect on the nervous system is probably the factor mediated for progesterone, because finasteride can abolish the effect of progesterone and not dihydroprogesterone, and also, you can see that dihydrotestosterone also has an effect on the expression of this particular gene in the nervous system. So, to again reiterate the point that 5-alpha-Reductase II may have other substrates besides testosterone, and I have not the time to go into others like cortisol and aldosterone, which also have 5-alpha metabolites which may have activities.”

You should read through the whole document, especially the end of it. See how Merck defends itself… Maybe, after reading it, you will stop using finasteride. In any case, it’s a very interesting read for guys interested in this topic.

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#39

I’m impressed with the insights this guy has. Do you guys think that maybe a neurologist is better equipped to help us recover than an endocrinologist? Many of us have been trying to get help from endocrinologists, but maybe neurologist is better, or someone trained in both fields would be even better, but really hard to find.

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#40

I agree with you. I don’t still fully understand why I made an appointment with an endocrinologist. Shouldn’t I be going to a neurologist, if I’m having mental side effects?

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