Finas dose dependant DHT reduction does not explain differents effects - Opinion

Hi, I would like to open a discussion about something I wrote in other topic.

“I know, the effect on dht of finas is almost the same (sligthly variation) from 0,05 mg dose to 5 mg. But for me there was a dramatic change when I moved from 1 to 5 mg. Also, I read the studies made for approval of finas 1mg for hair loss, and the effect on hair loss was completely different from a low dose (i do not remenber exactly the minimal dose used on these studies) to 1 mg, which does not make sense if hair loss is just dependant on dht reduction and it is almost the same from 0,05 in advance. Also 1mg does not affect theorically the prostate size and 5mg does. So, I think there is something else going on that is affected and dose dependat, not just skin or blood dht reduction.”

How is possible the regulator approved a dose (1mg) when the effect on hair loss was not explained for differecens on dht reduction (same from 0,05 to 5 mg) but it was dose dependant? The theory about getting balding was not just explained on DHT reduction theory, there was something else affected by finas that should explain differences on hair loss dose dependant, and not knowed. So the pill should not be never approved, because the mechanism is (somehow) unexplained.

Thougths?

I spoke with someone on the “inside” of the industry as I work peripherally in biotech. The “exec” responsible for “pushing” fin through the FDA process and getting it approved for hair loss was fired for doing just the excat same thing with another drug at another company prior to working at Merk. You are correct. Fin should have NEVER made it through the FDA process. The trials were not up to today’s standards… not even by a little bit. My THEORY… is that the original dose for prostate was primarily tested on older men with much lower T levels. So altering T and DHT on someone over the age of 50 is much less explosive than someone who is in their teens or 20s who has a top of the range T level. This is just a theory of mine. I also think its possible that Fin, totally seperate of T / DHT levels alters neurosteroids in a big way. Maybe that is because they are regulated by 5-AR or maybe its seperate. Most of my issues are neuro (vision, insomnia, etc… ) And I took Fin for 20 years

I think you’re correct about how high T/DHT individuals suffer the most from PFS.

I know my DHT was sky high before PFS thanks to certain… biological signals, if you will.

Do you have issues with dry or thin skin?

How do you know that? The effect of finasteride on what? What is slight variation?

How do you know that?

I am trying not to be a jerk here but can you please edit your post and try to formulate your question/argument better?

From studies:

Scalp skin DHT levels declined significantly by 13.0% with placebo and by 14.9%, 61.6%, 56. 5%, 64.1%, and 69.4% with 0.01, 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg doses of finasteride, respectively. Serum DHT levels declined significantly (P <.001) by 49.5%, 68.6%, 71.4%, and 72.2% in the 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg finasteride treatment groups, respectively.

And to the other question:

“Also 1mg does not affect theorically the prostate size and 5mg does” That was told to me by a doctor, but it could be easily checked from Mercks studies and FDA approval of 5mg pill for prostate.

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All right. We can work with this.

If we plot these data, we will see that DHT concentrations in scalp are a concave (from below) function of finaseride dose. I.e. finasteride has a diminishing marginal effect on DHT concentrations. Note that 5mg is 12.8% more effective than 0.05 in reducing scalp DHT.

The second thing we need to know is hair density as a function of DHT reduction. Perhaps this is not a linear function and hair density benefits particularly once DHT is reduced closer to a 100%. In other words, the function may be concave from above.

When you add these two relationships, you can easily have a 5mg pill being substantially more effective for hair density than a 0.05 mg pill.

As for what the doctor told you about the effect of 1mg finasteride on prostate, that’s obviously false in my opinion. I had dick shrinkage after 8 years of 1mg finasteride so I must have had prostate shrinkage as well. Also, the effect is likely to be cumulative so what 5mg can do in 1 year, 1mg may need 5 years to do.

When I have time I will copy (from Merck studies) the differences on hair loss depending on differents doses and you will see that this difference is much much higher than the difference on dht reduction (it can not be explained only with DHT reduction), with 0,05mg I think remenber there was almost no difference on hair loss, and DHT is already 60% reducted, It does not make sense

Did you read what I said above?

Yes, I will copy all the information needed (whtat I wrote and hair density depending on DHT reduction) and you will be able to check the correlation by yourself

Fine but I am telling you there is absolutely no contradiction or paradox here.

Thats you opinion, but we will check with data :slight_smile:

That’s my opinion contingent on the likely hypothesis that DHT reduction has increasing marginal effect on hair density. In math language, this means the function is concave from above: both first and second derivatives are positive. Another way to describe this function is by calling it exponential although that’s not correct technically speaking.

I understand maths :slight_smile: but i think is strange (not even concave line) almost no impact on hair loss with 0,05 mg (60% reduction) and full impact with 1 mg (70% reduction). I will copy the exact data cos I do not remember now

It may look strange but it is not unusual. Most relationships in nature and especially in biology are not linear. Many processes in biology also have threshold concentrations of substrates at which the shape of the function changes dramatically.

Also I went from hyperandrogenism to PFS moving from 1mg to 5mg, so I can not understand the minimal extra reduction on DHT could explain that, but that is my personal experienced I know

If you click the little pencil image underneath a post of yours you’ll be able to edit it