I think it’s because you are taking too much T for a top-up dose but too little for a replacement dose. As far as I know, while it is possible to somewhat increase T4, T3, or cortisol without having their regulatory signals shutting down (TSH and ACTH), it is usually impossible to “top-up” your T levels without having LH and FSH adjust accordingly. In other words, your body is very good at regulating the quantity of serum T in your body and doesn’t let you increase it. The usual work-around is a replacement dose (i.e., LH and FSH = 0, so you may want to take HCG). That’s why people on TRT take almost always replacement doses of T.
What I mean is, if it wasn’t being absorbed then my FSH and LH wouldn’t be affected. But it obviously is because both were tanking at the time of the draw. They might be at 0 by now. 50 mg a day adds up to 350 mg per week, from what info I’ve been able to find online it seems the average male naturally produces 5-10 mg a day. So I was supplementing 5-10x that, plus when you first start your level is supposed to spike because your own production is still online for a while so you’re getting both the replacement and your own naturally produced testosterone. Yet I have the lowest levels out of all the blood I’ve had drawn. These low levels really don’t make sense to me, but then neither does this syndrome. I figured my testosterone would come back higher not lower. Maybe something in my system is rejecting it or deactivating it somehow. Well now I’ll just wait on the results of awor’s study and hope my FSH and LH come back online on their own…
Correct. You are absorbing T.
Not correct. You are or were taking 50 mg a day of gel, not of T. Your gel was at 1% concentration, right? Then, that is 0.5 mg of T per day, which is 5-10% the average daily production, according to what you read. Therefore, that dose was meant to be a top-up dose, not a replacement dose. That is why your T came back lower.
huh? No, that never happened to pfs people. If a pfs male takes enough T, his total T goes up, not down. Nonetheless, we all know that this has rarely given any benefit to anybody.
Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it was just dosed out the same as injectable T. But that makes sense though. What doesn’t really make sense to me though is why he would prescribe me such a low dose that it would shut me down and only keep me at a lower level than my natural baseline. The whole point of trying this was to raise my levels. I guess the next step would be to up the dosage, but I’m not really feeling like continuing down this path. Think I’ll wait until this study comes back with some results and go from there.
Injectables would be preferable over gels if you are not getting any effects from the gel.
I hear you man. My dr gave me T-gel too (1 mg of T/day), while I would have preferred clomid. He says that some men can use top-up doses successfully (i.e., their T increases), while in others, like you, even a small dose suppresses LH and FSH and their T eventually decreases. This second set of men has to use replacement doses.
Just a question though. Why do you want to go on a T-boosting-only protocol? Are you aware that you are very likely to get worse on such protocol (if you succeed at increasing your T)?
Your choice. Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence that nothing is structurally wrong with the receptor. And, therefore, the study will be unsuccessful (or will result in something like: “since we couldn’t find the problem in aspect A of the receptor, the problem must be in aspect B of the receptor, and more research at the molecular level is needed”). But, hey, this is my personal opinion and anybody is free to disagree.
Nevertheless, everybody must agree that there is more convincing evidence that you have pretty low cortisol (your saliva test is in the low end of the range) and, I can tell you by experience, you will benefit by correcting that issue.
Right. If I decide to pursue this route again in the future I’ll go with the injections.
Just following my doctor’s recommendation. He sees no problem with my thyroid and cortisol numbers. In my particular case I don’t believe my hormone levels are too low, so I didn’t really expect it to make me feel better anyways. It was suggested though and I haven’t really tried anything besides natural recovery and supplements so I did it just to see if it would make a difference, good or bad.
Personally I’d rather not take any pharmaceuticals or hormones at all until theres some evidence in the form of science or enough reports from users here that they work reliably. If we actually understood what the problem was and there was a drug we could take that would specifically treat the problem I’d probably be more likely to, but at this point it just seems to be a pin the tail on the donkey type situation. Since the results of the study are only a month away, I’d rather just wait and see what type of discoveries are made from that before I start taking some other drug/hormone that may or may not make me feel better (or worse). Thats just me though, I appreciate all the users who have experimented with different drugs/hormones, it just sucks that out of everything it seems nothing has worked reliably to actually cure people. I could be wrong, but my intuition tells me that in my particular situation my hormone levels aren’t the problem. I feel more that either my neurotransmitter levels/nervous system is messed up or the way the hormones are being used or processed/broken down is the problem in my case (out of range low 3-adiol-G on every blood draw). The fact that I’ve tried a bunch of different supplements but only had a brief recovery on maca make me lean in this direction too, as its believed that it works on the CNS and doesn’t directly affect hormone levels.
have u cheked your prostate as all your bloods seem good
No, I’m already pretty sure its messed up though, I have dribbling after I take a piss still, which was the main reason I stopped taking propecia. Although it has improved some since I quit. I guess I need to go to a urologist at some point, just haven’t done it yet. Guess I’m not really looking forward to getting anally probed and having my tiny shriveled up dick inspected by some stranger. Shit is embarrassing. Going from most people’s experiences here I’ll prob just get prescribed some antibiotics and sent on my way anyways. Doesn’t really seem worth the trouble.
I have dribbling as well… youre the first person to mention this as well that i’ve seen…It can be really annoying… Ill sit there and shake well and nothing comes out… yet I leave and walk away and all of sudden I feel a drip down by pants… annoying as hell I tell ya!!
I have that too.
When I was on clomid, I had this problem alternatively, 10 days on and 10 days off. I’m not sure how the prostate’s behavior can change so much in so few days.
Lack of DHT i’d assume…
I just had another blood draw this morning, so I picked up the results that weren’t ready yet from the last draw. For some reason I can’t edit my previous post to add them. My DHT was out of range high, I guess most of the Testim was being turned into DHT. Funny thing is though, my 3-adiol-g was still out of range low, what a surprise. Seems like thats the one constant with me.
Blood drawn 08/03/11, TRT Day 21
DHT: 82 [25 - 75] ng/dL
3-adiol-g: 166 [260 - 1500]
Your DHT being backed up might be explained by low metabolic rate. Your cortisol (from the latest saliva x 4 test) looks too low to me. I think that increasing it might help flushing DHT towards 3-adiol-g (but keep an eye on thyroid hormones).
Or, if 3a-HSD enzyme has been damaged by Finasteride, perhaps DHT cannot convert to 3a-diol G, hence the low levels.
I’m really hoping this isn’t something that was overlooked during the recent experiments, its an avenue I think surely needs to be investigated. Also while you’re here Mew, why can’t I edit my previous posts anymore? It helps me keep this thread uncluttered by going back and updating missing results and also removing the previous excel file screenshots. Maybe an admin can check my settings and see why this seems to not be an option for me any longer. Thanks.
fin2005, How long have you been on Testim and and have you seen any improvements since being on it? I scrolled back through your old posts, but I didn’t see any comments on this.
I was on Testim 1% gel for 27 days, and didn’t feel any improvement. My blood test showed that it lowered my LH and FSH, lowered my testosterone, and raised my DHT to its highest level ever. Yet I felt no positive effects. Probably because my 3-adiol-g was still out of range low. I posted my experience in the TRT user experiences thread here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3250&start=20
Results from 09/23/11 @ 8:57 AM. 6 weeks off of TRT.
Progesterone - 0.94 [0.28 - 1.22] ng/mL
Pregnenolone - 209 [23 - 173] ng/dL
FSH - 2.8 [1.0 - 9.0] mIu/mL
LH - 4.2 [1.5 - 9.3] mIU/mL
Total Test. - 519 [300 - 1080] ng/dL
Free Test. - 100 [47 - 244] pg/mL
Bioavailable Test. - 319 [131 - 682] ng/dL
Free Test. % - 1.9 [1.6 - 2.9] %
SHBG - 27 [11 - 80] nmol/L
Estradiol - <12.0 [0 - 32.2] pg/mL
DHT - 31 [25 - 75] ng/dL
3-adiol-g - 121 [260 - 1500] ng/dL
IGF-1 - 205 [115 - 307] ng/mL
Prolactin - 9.0 [2.1 - 17.7] ng/mL
Vitamin D - 34 [30 - 150] ng/mL
TSH - 1.96 [0.40 - 5.00] uIU/mL
Free T3 - 3.2 [2.18 - 3.98] pg/mL
Reverse T3 - 246 [90 - 350] pg/mL
Free T4 - 1.2 [0.7 - 1.5] ng/dL
