I heard via my doctor’s assistant that he’s not a fan of clomid. I will be seeing him in 2 weeks, but i sent my labs in the meantime which are low Free T and high SHBG & Estradiol. So, I asked his assistant if he’d just give me an rx for clomid now (this doc is a friend of a friend…so i can sometimes get him to do stuff like that - but not with hormone-regulating drugs it turns out) based on the labs and he said no he’s not a fan of that drug. He said he “knew the theory i was getting at” and “i was creative to think of it” (i read it here…) but he said it “wont resolve my situation”.
I want to go back in there with more info… because I don’t want T-Gel (or similar) which is i think what I’ll end up with (according to my friend who sent me there). My friend doesn’t know much more bc the doc won’t discuss it as he considers these matters very personal (e.g. sexual issues). Clomid seems like the most logical drug. straight testosterone seems like the beginning of 30 years of side effects and drug dependence… am i wrong here?
Btw, this doc publishes a lot of male androgen things. He’s an endo - but more focused on men & androgens.
First of all I can’t imagine any endo writing you a script without an in person visit to go over your labs. Also, don’t read too much into what the girls in the front office say. Sometimes they are way off the mark.
He’s probably right when he says clomid “wont resolve your (our) situation”. Sounds like you found a good endo and he’s researched a bit into PFS.
How are your FSH and LH? If they are high then whats the use of clomid? Your T is getting bound up by SHBG. I know clomid is the logical place to start but few of us improve while on it. For me personally I had zero resolution of any side effects while on clomid.
Eat more cooked tomato which contains lycopene which markedly reduces prostate cancer risk.
Eat Cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussel sprouts. These contain Indole 3 Carbinol which increases the conversion of estradiol to “weaker” (2OHE) estrogen. Broccoli also contains quercetin which is beneficial for chronic prostatitis.
Some herbs may help lower SHBG - Avena Sativa and/or Urtica Dioica are two.
If you’re still determined to get clomid you can buy it online. If your logic is to maximize your native T before you try other things I guess it makes sense. Low dose clomid over time will raise serum T but I’d procede pretty carefully and have labs done (esp checking e2 since you already said its high) before I started it and then after a few weeks into it.
ps- From what you say it sounds like your endo might subscribe to the androgen insensitivity theory. Seems most PFS docs do now. Read Awor’s thread on this and review the papers on that thread. Print it out and cite the papers for reference to present to your endo.
Why Clomid? That’s not going to lower estrogen or SHBG which is the main problem here.
You need an AI like arimidex or even better, aromasin. You need this to unbind SHBG, decrease E2 and increase T levels. Aromasin will do all of this. Some people would recommend a SERM (Clomid or Nolva) alongside this to help increase FSH/LH levels, but imo the aromasin is what you need. Even proviron could help as this basically pumping synthetic DHT into your body which has a stronger binding affinity than SHBG. Similar effect as aromasin but probably less effective and sustainable.
Listen to your doc, dont walk in tellin him what’s what.
TRT is a ridiculous idea at this stage though. Talk about missing the root cause!!
Thanks colin… yeah i am really new to all of this so just trying to learn the basics. I read a lot of posts where people seemed to say clomid had the best risk / reward ratio for that drug - given various side effects and whatnot… so I mentioned that briefly to the docs assistant. Also, per the posts here, Pure T is not something I want to deal with as a first try - and it doesn’t seem to have helped people here either for the most part.
So I understand that aromasin reduces estrogen and proviron increases DHT - so do you see one root cause here? If the estrogen is reduced & unbound from SHBG - won’t more testosterone bind to the leftover SHBG?
Are any of these things possible to just take for a short period to get things back to normal - or am I gonna be on this for life?
Yeah some people make natural recoveries. You should start with 50mg-100mg of zinc daily.
The root cause is estrogen/shbg in your case (it would appear)
THe answer to your question is no - because that gives your body a chance to create more DHT which will never “aromatase” into things like SHBG. Your SHBG levels will have crept up gradually over time on fin because, fin decreased DHT which = more testosterone and less DHT. Over many cycles, i guess, SHBG levels grew (less DHT being created due to finasteride’s surpression). So, basically, you just need a reset.
Obviousy you need to look at your levels in detail this is just general advise…
EDIT - I didn’t mean to imply DHT CAN ever aromatase into SHBG. SHBG binds to free testosterone rendering it unavailable to convert to the likes of DHT. Less DHT conversion = more free tesosterone for SHBG to bind to. This is what happens.
BUT zinc can be toxic so you might want to take the weekends off / alternate some days [which is what i do/did]
You might also want to take a ratio of copper with it, so maybe take 4-5mg of copper along with those bigger doses. This is because zinc and copper levels are linked so too much of one would downregulate that other too much. This would keep
eveything in balance
For you to dispute very much conventional wisdom with a comment like yours really is pathetic. My endochronologist also agreed with this.
Regarding the copper to offset the zinc, this is a medical recommendation I have read. I’ll not waste time with it simply because i’ll be surprised if you dispute it. Secondly, the “days offs” zinc was a recommendation from my endo and it makes perfect sense.
But hey, maybe you know better, right? You certainly seem to act like you know something we don’t know.
I think it’s clear that you are blinded by your own complications that you forget that most people aren’t like you in that they do have distorted hormones which simply need addressed, and not “silenced gene expression” or whatever the fuck else you have conjured up as your latest theory. That’s your perogative, but don’t spout your shit in here without at least offering help to the poster yourself.
I’m not sure what ZMA tablets contain so maybe you’re right.
Note that the 50-100mg zinc supplement isn’t about correcting a zinc deficiency though, its about using zinc for its supposed anti-aromatase properties.
Very interesting. Thanks. That is definitely making sense to me now. As a new member here, I really appreciate this info & explanation. My endo is the type who is ok with me asking “what about aromasin, etc” but if he says “where would you come up with that?” at least i can have a reasonably informed answer. He might not agree but I’ll find out in a few weeks. So, this is useful. I can’t believe how many years I have lived with these symptoms (which are shockingly identical to other posters)… I am guessing this is not going to work for a few monthts, right? Do people recover in any predictable timeline?
I have the Solaray brand zinc/copper supplement and it has 50 mg zinc and 2 mg copper + 53 mcg iodine. I don’t take it every day… since I take a lot of supplements it gets to be rough on my digestive system - but I didn’t know it affected the hormone system. I highly doubt I get enough in food so I bought it a while ago - though I read somewhere the two compete for absorbtion in the digestive tract (which would be odd for a company to sell them together so who knows.)
Just re-read that post of mine to make sure i didn’t confuse you, though. I’ve edited it at the bottom to clarify.
Anyway, there’s alot of info out there so get reading
Your hormones are out of sync so concentrate on those, not extravagant theories to explain some of the more extreme cases.
As regards recovery, the answer is no. Yes, I do believe you might take a while to fully recover but significant improvements should be made if you can start fixing the root problem. If im right (note i havent even seen your figures!!) and an AI like aromasin works, well, you’ll probably feel improvement within a day or two and certainly a week. The real sustained improvement will ultimately come when your T/E levels and your SHBG levels all normalise and accordingly allow other levels to normalise and for your body to achieve a safe reset.
The theory sounds easy but the balance is actually pretty difficult which is why (one of the reasons) alot of people feel great for a few days and then results deteriorate again.
I’m glad you have now edited your posts. I dont think someone like you who visited this site 3yrs ago, then tried finasteride, and has now come back for some reason, is in any position to offer advice. Unless in those three years you have become a male hormone specialist. Which i strongly doubt. Not sure i’m “spouting shit” but i wont bother you again.
Hormone specialist? LOL. This is pretty basic stuff, im not trying to reinvent the wheel or spin any wild theories.
Yeah, imagine trying finasteride like the millions of others. That’s rich, real rich. You know full well (and should do from your own experience) why people try finasteride so don’t go there.
You might stop to think that, 3 years ago there was even less people on here. People with sustained side effects remain very much in the minority. I dont advocate fin after my experience but i can see why people “risk” it in the hope they are in the majority. Not to forget i had taken fin 6 months before only to have mild ball ache. So i didn’t really relate to people on here anyway. So im not sure what your gripe is mate?
Silenced gene expression seems to be the leading theory among most of the PFS docs. The two that are treating me believe that is the cause. If you believe this boils down to “distorted hormone profiles” for most you’re in for a very rude awakening one day. It may be elaborate but androgen insensitivity theory is hardly “shit”. Alot of us, including myself, have hormone profiles within the norm and still exhibit hypogonadism. We are hardly in the “minority”. Right now silenced AR signal is our best theory.
Anyway flaming really gets us no where and his question pertained to clomid. We are getting a bit off topic.
Anyway, I do believe, for most, it is distorted hormone profiles.
Why?
Well firstly, alot of the more milder cases tend to either realign over time or respond very well to basic drug treatment. Most people don’t get as far as secondary hypogonadism it would seem. (Thank God).
Most of the cases on here do exhibit distorted hormones. In fact, you just need to look in the blood section to see how messed up some people’s hormones are. Normalising these (often extremely complex) would fix or atleast substantially improve most, if not all, these sufferers. Wouldn’t you agree? The clue really lies in the fact that finasteride does alter your hormones in the first place and this is what caused the initial complications.
I do think you are losing your perception of what the “quantitative” majority of sufferers actually is due to the fact that it tends to be the more sinister of cases that are persistently active on this forum. Just because Mew, Oscar and a few others amount to half the posts on this board doesn’t mean this represents the majority, boston. It’s also only the most sinster of cases that reach out to the likes of Dr Shippen etc. You guys with, apparent secondary hypogonadism are the exception rather than the norm mate.
I hate to say this last thing, but you say “PFS doctors”. Sadly, there’s almost no such thing. A few doctors treating a handful of cases, probably on the side, aren’t really going to save the world before supper. It’s tragic, really.
If this were the case we’d all go on clomid , estrogen blockers or TRT and be cured. But that very rarely works if ever. How many true recovery stories have you seen here that were the result of balancing horomnes with pharmacuiticals? Because only 5%-10% of the forum is active doest mean the other 90% is cured or not having severe sides.
Did I or anyone say PFS docs spend 100% of their time researching Finasteride? There are a couple, particularly Jacobs, who seem very interested. We are damn lucky to have him (them).
Again, we’re off topic. I’m sure you will post and have the last word…
It’s not about having the last word. I simply see this as constructive discussion, im not sure why some of you guys are so hostile towards other guys in the same boat. That’s crazy. I don’t think TS minds if we utilise this thread discussing this either but, obviously, that’s up to him.
But you’re right, there aren’t too many stories of outright cures. It’s sad but its true. It’s also hard to quantify how many people have got better either naturally or by drugs that havent returned. My bet is a fair few.
Anyway, I think the difficulty lies in the extreme complexity of the hormones levels. Every patient is different, everyone will have slightly different hormonal problems and slightly different optimum ranges. The intricate balance isn’t really appreciated on here it seems. Just because a guy has tried loads of drugs doesnt mean he’s used them right. Often more damage will actually have been done.
I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that, most people can be cured with a very specifically tailored drug protocol. When i say very specific i mean very specific. Dosage, duration, synegistic effect. For example, a specific amount of time on HcG whilst on an AI (at a specific dose for a specific amount of time) and then go on a SERM [or a combo of 2, for instance - clomid and nolva as both are somewhat different] after that. This is the type of protocol that ive been recommended by some really in the know steriod experts, with a very PFS-specific rationale. The chances of you getting such a detailed programme from even the best doctors is unlikely, right? So, yes, im speculating, but to me, its makes more sense than some other things. Let’s face it, alot of these steriod users (the more knowledgable ones) get themselves out of real messes after HPTA shutdown that i bet no endo could have did.
I’ve said it a few times on here now. Recovery is about a sustained rebalancing of our hormones to normalise them “naturally”. I’m not trying to downplay the complexity one bit - right now, we’re pretty damn far away from endo’s really having these kind of protcols in their armonary. Even the best guys are using a gun-hoe approach in hope that something sticks.
And yes, maybe some of your are different but the people with clear hormonal imbalances rarely actually achieve a return to range and I dont think any of you are able to tell me it’s their protocol’s failure that is the reason why. You mightnt know that many bodybuilders, after long hard cycles, can take two or three elaborate PTA’s before kick starting their systems again? We could be no different…
EDIT - And has it ever actually struck you that even if your levels are in range, that they might be all in range for the wrong reasons? Ranges mean very little if you dont know how they’ve fallen into range. There are so many hormones off-setting each other, just because they appear ok, doesn’t indicate they are. The simple fact that you aren’t okay, tells me they aren’t. Just because a doctor won’t look at it, doesn’t mean its not the case.
Well anyway, the endo said no to clomid…proviron, etc… he is a very nice guy but wants to think about it (again this is a family friend so he is not in the normal situation)
In the meantime, my urologist gave me clomid w/o me even suggesting it… based on the same labs. He said he has seen a lot better results on clomid than on T… which is what his peer gives…plain T (his peer did the labs - but is too damn booked up to get back in for a rx). He said clomid just acts slower & T will give you a jolt right away but it’s not as physiologically normal… and then he said i might not have the response im hoping - so dont get too excited.
Im starting off on 25 mg every other day - and then a blood test in a month roughly.
