Eugene Shippen, M.D. (co-author of “The Testosterone Syndrome”, 1998) provides extensive evidence in his book of documenting the pathology of testosterone deficiency syndromes in men.
The following attached document is an excerpt from that book, and provides an overview of protocols on how to detect and correct Tesosterone deficiencies in men.
View attached text file to read the document.
Eugene Shippens - Correcting T deficiencies.txt (26 KB)
Dude, how come you haven’t done any PCT yet, don’t you think its urgent?? I.e. the longer you wait the harder it is to recover…
Do you think bodybuilders in the thousands of gyms across the country would ever wait to do a PCT, and just let their systems crash, and stay that way for 18 months??? while still with hopes they will ever recover. Crazy!
Boston - WHO we’re you talking to here…???
Anyway - very good/interesting question. IS it urgent to respond quickly if a person crashes into PFS?? Does PCT work (or has it worked) for PFS the same way it does for steroid abuse?? I’m very interested to know if anyway “caught” it quick enough and pulled out of PFS with PCT… ???
This has been discussed a lot. I used to push the idea that it might have been better to treat right away but who knows?
I based it on a member called labrea who got really screwed up and made improvements across the board most of us can only dream of.
He took clomid pretty quickly after crashing, his endo had no choice to give it to him PFS or not 'cos his levels were so low.
But there have been a lot more people attempting treatments early on in the last couple of years who have not been so successful.
Bear in mind also that BBers do not have the same range of severe symptoms as we do i.e. total ED, changes to genital structure, extreme brain fog and fatigue etc so it’s not a great comparison. Something else entirely is going on in the vast majority of cases here.
Blakes that post is several years old.
BB’s to PFS is apples to oranges IMO.
I’m in the early treatment no results catagory.
Blake, if you are just 6 months off quitting, i would urge you to try tamoxifen/nolvadex. I don’t believe you need a complicated PCT.
This is based on my own experience, where i tried tamoxifen 3 months after quitting. It completely reversed all my symptoms (which were severe) that i was left with after crashing the 1st time ie it returned sexual function, genital size and sensitivity, energy, libido, sleep patterns, mental wellbeing. I was back to my old self 20 mins after the 1st pill.
I then crashed again 3 weeks later, but i’m convinced it was because i was allowing myself to get far too stressed again and was doing far too much in my life again. This was even though i was trying to protect myself as much as i could from reversing back in to PFS, as i had read stories on the board about this. But when you start to feel good again, it’s hard to avoid not getting stuck in to normal life again. I’m now left with less severe PFS symptoms. I’ve tried more tamoxifen and no results and i’ve tried natural testosterone boosters and no results. Maybe you only get one chance at it soon after quitting.
I was concerned initially about the cancer links so i should probably warn you of that as well. But i believed the links are minute, and it was a risk i was willing to take as i saw this as the only real chance of recovering, after hearing people push the idea of trying something like clomid and tamoxifen early on. Dury and Labrea’s stories are the ones i focused on.
Now most of the focus on the board is on Awor’s efforts, but science and awareness will be slow with this. I don’t think you have anything to lose by trying tamoxifen. Otherwise you’ll focus will probably then turn to Awor’s thread like myself and long term sufferers.
If you live in the U.S. you seem to be able to get hold off drugs a lot easier than in the UK, so i would start it as soon as you can and wait a while to see if you can get/sustain positive results. Then come back here and let us know how you got on.
Boston and Luckfax - the drug you take soon after quitting could make all the difference. Most of the recovery (attempt) stories i read on the board involved clomid. This was the drug i went to obtain from my Endo. He refused and gave me tamoxifen instead as he thought it was safer. I obtained tamoxifen purely by chance. The mechanisms on how they both work i believe are totally different. Clomid work like testosterone boosters. Tamoxifen blocks off oestrogen effects - this is what could be crucial if we are talking about up regulating our androgen receptor’s and our bodies’ sensitivity to androgens. It could also be that only a small percentage of us have the chance of recovering via this route soon after quitting finasteride, but i’m assuming there is a very small percentage of men here who have actually tried tamoxifen soon after quitting. Most seem to go for clomid.
I assume BB stands for bodybuilders??
I know there are differences but I’ve always heard that anabolic steroid abusers could end up with shrunken testicles and penis. So, I think a LOT Of the same is going on.
So it sounds like PCT worked for some but like anything, mixed results. But don’t you think it’s potentially critical to act quickly with a treatment to restore Testosterone after it crashes?? Or is it more prudent to let time pass and just see what happens…?
No, not really. It’s far more complicated than that. One is well documented and understood case of simply shutting down your native T. The other (we think) involves some complicated epigenetic mechanisms of gene expression.
our problem is veeeeeeery complex
Sorry to pull you up again boston, but thats incorrect.
If your referring to Awor’s ideas, one of the few things he has said repeatedly and very clearly is that PFS and Androgen Deprevation are one and the same. So ‘Deca-Dick’ and BBs causing themselves permanent harm and our problems have the same root cause - according to this ‘epigenetic-molecular’ theory anyway.
You misunderstood both posts. Everyone here well understands there is a difference in the root of cause of shrinkage due to shut down of native T while on TRT and PFS due to androgen deprevation treatment. Two different things. If they were the “same” restart protocols would work at the same rate for all of us just like do for BB’s. They absolutely do not. Saying “alot of the same stuff is going on in us as in BB’s” isn’t accurate.
lol @ “pull you up” though
I have 250 mg tesosterone enantato (sorry i can’t translate it in english) syringes and 2000 u.l. hcg and i want to have super high testosterone (i have quite good results with super high testosterone) for the week 15-22 july, so when do you advice me to take testosterone and when hcg to maximize their effect for that week?
You should speak to your doctor when asking this type of advice, none of us are qualified to give such recommendations
Additionally you might consider asking Dr. Crisler on his forum: musclechatroom.com/forum/forum.php
Who are you referring to when you say “we”?
It would be helpful if you would qualify these type of statements as your opinion so others who are new don’t mistake them for facts.
I do appreciate you weighing in - brainstorming is good for those suffering from propecia - but since there is no consensus as to what happens you’d do more service to others by sharing your “experience”, rather than your best guesses. The androgen resistance theory is hotly debated as is the epigenetic theory.
As Dr. Irwig told me “the medical community knows nothing yet about why this occurs so anything you do at this point is correct”!!!
Has anyone got depression from Tamoxifen ? I see its one of the listed side effects.
If the “depression” from it is anything like the depression Finasteride causes I would not go near it.
Bump