DHT levels?

General Discussion
#7

DHT does not increase the size of the prostate in normal men without prostate cancer post puberty according to new information.

DHT gel was found to decrease prostate size in ageing men in the massive phases 3 trials of Andractim DHT by Besins pharmaceuticals.

DHT gel is seen as a superior treatment for hypogoandism in elderly men because it doesn’t cause prostate problems or gynecomastia.

Furthermore people are describing prostate trouble with finasteride based products when finasteride lowers DHT- not increases it- lowers it.

Increasing DHT via a gel has an effect on the HPTA of reducing testosterone which in turn results in a lowered level of estrogen. The lowered level of estrogen is what was though in the Andractim trials of reducing incidences of BPH and reducing prostate size.

I think the cause for increase prostate size and prostate problems in ageing men is increasing SHBG and estradiol.

It is SHBG and estrogen which increase with age and are at their highest in old age. DHT levels are actually at their highest not in aging when we see prostate problems, but actually in youth when we see little to no prostate problems. DHT is at its highest when it is fuelled by high healthy testosterone levels.

All the new info is point to estrogens and SHBG being the problem of the prostate when elevated as opposed to the old theory that it was all down to testosterone r DHT.

Prostate problems are thought to be mutifactoral in origin though so there maybe very complx interactions that marry together to produce problems including age and genetics etc.

#8

my whole point is… that most of us have not gotten our DHT levels checked. maybe they are too high or too low, and maybe that can shed some light on the problem.

#9

DHT testing is an absolute requirement of hormonal pathology/endocrine testing. It is boardering on the absurd and pointless to not test DHT post propecia use.

Or to put it another way…your dead right.

#10

I copied this a while ago from a website, I think it was ‘bodybuilding.com’. I never noted the author though.
It may have some relevance here;

‘‘It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system that lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress—not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.
I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver’’.

#11

I wouldn’t bother to copy information from bodybuilding sources.

If they were complete rubbish then at least people could easily dismiss them;

The fact is because they contain a lot of truth, but a certain amount of rubbish, many people take what is in them for fact and in doing so get a warped picture of reality.

Their information is tailored to the abuse of AAS and they are often cut and paste jobs where the person posting has little understanding of what they are talking about. Like I say there is enough rubbish contained within them to leave a lot of people with the wrong idea.

#12

I took a blood test for DHT and other hormones a couple of days ago and will post my results in about a week.

Josh

#13

robin, I like that passage you pulled out. that makes a lot of sense to me what DHT might be, and because this is what also feels like is happeneing. Did you se my post on “Nerve damage” This makes sense.
It might just be like paralyzing a limb sometimes, or suffering an injury, most people in time often get full feeling and function back, nerves regenerate, and things feel normal again,
but sometimes, rarely, people lose feeling after injuries for good sometimes.

Anyway, was that talking about people who take steroids and Proscar together? And in what context? Was it talking about how it can just hurt their muscles and strength ALL OVER, in general?

anyway, good lookin out…

#14

im really looking forward to see what everyones DHT levels are.

im starting to firmly believe that, at least in my case, all my symptoms are caused by a form of prostatitis. perhaps DHT levels have a lot to do with this condition.

#15

do you always feel like you have the urge to pee, and have trouble drinking anything without having to pee? How many people out there experience this too? And how long has it been lasting for you all too?? Am I gonna be like one of those guys in the Avodart commercial forever now?

I’m sorry, but this is what I also think and why I think I have some symptoms and form of prostatitis as well.
I just think my prostate is seriously injured. and I think there are many forms pf prostatitis…

#16

YES. i have exactly that.

to give you an example, i was driving around today and was drinking a bottle of water (normal size, nothing to big). i had to go pee at least 3 times, in a row. it was no more then 15min since the last time i went, when i had to go again.
i also noticed that if i sit at the computer for too long, my prostate pain will act up.

i recommend going to a book store and checking out the stuff they have in the health section, about different medical conditions. a lot of times, if you just search the internet, you’ll only end up getting the short version of the whole problem/condition. i was actually reading a book put out by Merk (of all people) that had some good info on prostate health and sexual disfunction.

most importantly is to remember that we are all in this together and to keep your head up. life is full of surprises. you might wake up one day and find yourself perfectly back to normal, or at the very least, find out that we have a diagnosis and cure.

#17

I have had to pee a lot too. My uro said that I have prostatitis because I had white blood cells in my urine. He prescribed me an antibiotic.

However, I have been reading a lot on the effects of estrogen on the prostate. It turns out that excess estrogen can cause BHP.

Anyway, I thought it was quite a coincidence that I would get a bacterial infection in the prostate at the same time I was taking propecia. The only thing that I could think of was that maybe the prostate was weakened by the propecia and allowed an infection. Anyone, is there any credibility to this???

I have decided to stop taking the antibiotic since they are known to have estrogen increasing effects. Personally, I feel more like I have an excess of estrogen, which is causing the prostate issues. I should know by the end of next week after blood tests. Anybody disagree with this theory??? Hypo, what do you think???

#18

dood… get back on the antibiotics like the doctor said! there is a good chance that they may cure all of your problems.

i know we all have a lot of theories and ideas, but if your doctor gave you a diagnosis, give it a try.

#19

Some nen with hypogonadism and elevated estrogens get bladder infections and prostate problems.

I cannot pass comment on the cause of your specific problems.

I would have thought it made sense going with what your doctor say in terms of antibiotic and at the same time getting hormone pathology that includes SHBG and estradiol.

#20

This same uro said…and I quote “it is impossible for finasteride to cause these side effects”.

My only concern with the antibiotics is that Dr. Shippen’s book states that they increase the production of estrogen. Can anyone prove or disprove?? I have been searching for quite a while, but I have only found it linked to breast cancer.

#21

here is the thing… he found a bacteria in your prostate, that causes prostatis , that causes the side effects that you have. so the next step would be to treat that.

if anitboitics do raise the estrogen in anyway, it would only be for that short period of time that you are on them. trust your doctor a little and give it a try. i dont think you have anything to loose, but a lot to gain.

#22

Hi skippy,

Thanks for the response. I’m about 50/50 on whether to det back on it or not. Obviously, I’m not super interested in being on any doctor-prescribed drugs right now. But…he could be right. Anyway, just wanted to clarify…he didn’t find a bacteria. He simply listened to my symptoms, and noticed that I had white blood cells in my urine. I have been doing a lot of research, and I do not display a lot of the more common symptoms of bacterial prostatitis. Unfortunately, I don’t think that the medical world is extremely knowledgeable in diagnosis and curing of prostatitis (based on what I’ve read thus far…in fact, there is one type of prostatitis that they basically have no idea how it occurs or how to fix it) since many things can cause it. One of those things is increased estrogen levels. So, finding out that antibiotics, especially sulfates like septra DS (this is what I was on) also increase estrogen, and thinking that I might already have increased estrogen due to fin caused me to stop the treatment. Nothing really changed either way. I still pee a lot, but I am also taking in a ton more water than I used to and I have an increased awareness of my genital area like most of us on here.

Anyway, thank you for the continued advise. I am interested in what everyone has to say, and am in no way discounting you thoughts. Just trying to play a little devil’s advocate. I may or may not get back on the antibiotic. I want to continue to research. Also, I will have new blood test results by the end of next week, which should tell me the status of my estrogen levels.

Thanks again!

#23

i had my estrogen levels checked, and they were completely normal. yet i think i probably have more health problems then anyone on here.

“it is impossible for finasteride to cause these side effects”.

you know, in a strange way, maybe hes right. a side effect is normally something that happens during the coarse of taking the medication. i dont know about you, but ive been off propecia for about 2yrs now. chances are, there is none of it left in my system, yet i still have health problems. i come to realize that maybe i shouldnt even mention taking propecia to any of the doctors i go to. just tell them my symptoms and see where we go from there. there is a good chance that all of us are just suffering from prostatitis and thats what we should focus on curing. now if thats the case, then we can start to trace it back in finasteride, and have some legal leverage.

i guess what im trying to say there, is that we know that propecia did this to us. but now, lets forget about that and find out what exactly what medical condition we have as a result of taking it, and try to treat that.

#24

You need to throw out words like normal and see the actual results and with an enodcrinologist try and ascertain if the various hormones and their ratios etc lead to the problems you are talking about.

If I had my way I would put a ban on doctors from using the word normal when passing information onto patients regarding hormone pathology.

If it were a simply matter of being in a range equating to normal then we could dispense with doctors and let monkeys with bar code scanners analyze hormone results.

A supposed normal reference range of estradiol can leave some men with a pair of breasts thanks to the development of gynecomastia, how normal exactly is that?

Once again I quote Shippen, he explains well one of the major problems that can be applied to all reference ranges- not just testosterone.

Quote
To confine ourselves to testosterone for the moment, let me point out what is useless is the standard doctrine that according to which a man’s testosterone levels is within the normal range if it falls somewhere between 300ng/dl and 1000ng/dl.

Such a notion of normality is virtually meaningless, unless all you mean by it is 90 percent of all men do, in fact, have testosterone levels within this range. But a meaningful medical notion of normal surely contains an implicit approval of the level found, a suggestion that when a man’s testosterone is above the lower number and below the higher number, he can rest assured that he is basically on track. In other words, his health, and vigor should be supported rather than adversely affected by his level- he’s “normal”.

If that is what doctors mean when they refer to normal testosterone levels, then they are flat out wrong
Unquote

I have no idea whether or not you have bacteria in your prostate that is causing you problems. You might well have, I also do not know if you have high estrogens or if the effects of finasteride could have or are cause this?

However I can tell you that certainly some prostate problems and bladder infections absolutely can be caused by such problems.

I would also doubt that your urologist knows much about androgen related issue or the effects of finasteride, most don’t have the first clue about such things.

On that basis, if I were you I would take the antibiotic in the short term and see if it sorts the problem out, but I would also keep in mind the possibility that such things might be caused by a hormone imbalance and on that note I would also get endocrine pathology that includes estradiol and SHBG as well as DHT, testosterone, LH etc.

If the antibiotics do not rid you of the problem and something seems amiss in the pathology then I would fire the urologist and try and get a decent doctor who might be able to look deeper in matters.

P.S

When you get pathology, make sure you request a copy of your results and reference ranges and post them on the site….do not for god sake accept the word normal.

#25

OK, let me ask this then:

Has anyone on here or does anyone on here know of anyone in our condition that has had a uro prescribe them an antibiotic?

If yes, what were the results.

Unfortunately, the treatment is a minimum of 4 weeks, usually 6…therefore, taking it for a small amount of time most likely won’t give any results. Actually, I was on it for a week before I read the Shippen book. I feel as though I am getting better without it. Morning wood (weak, but existent…slightly more libido, etc.)

#26

do you have any groin or testicular pain?