If we have trouble converting from T to DHT as Dr Shippen says could be the case, why wouldnt DHT cream work?
Has anyone here tried it?
DHT cream/Proviron probably wouldn’t work because DHT would exert a negative feedback on teh HTPA and decrease T and LH levels, as demonstrated here:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer … t=Citation
Just my thoughts.
Yes, but I mean DHT cream along with T and HCG.
It all depends upon the cause of problems to begin with.
If you have a reasonable level of DHT post propecia use then its usefullness would be questionable.
It certainly dose lower endogenous production of testosterone as it is a steroid that is recognised by the hypothalamus just as testosterone and estradiol are.
When DHT gel is used on its own it can help treat gynecomastia quite successfully if gynecomastia is in the proliferation phase, it can also improve erections and libido in some men, but because it leads to a reduction in testosterone and it lacks many of testosterones properties it leaves many men fatigued, with joint pain etc.
If it is going to be used with testosterone, you have to question the point.
A) Is DHT still low post propecia use
B) Is DHT low on testosterone replacement?
If DHT is not low on testosterone replacement, which you wouldn’t expect as a certain amount of testosterone should naturally be converted to DHT, then what is the point in adding more DHT?
Of course if DHT is low post propecia use and low despite testosterone replacement then of course it may well be worth consideration.
P.S
DHT does have its uses and I have been prescribed it in the past.
Well while on TRT my T level shot up to way over ref range, yet my DHT remained at mid range. This is telling me that im still not converting to DHT as much as I should be especially for such a high T number. DHT should be in the upper third - with normal T levels.
I also wonder if the DHT is the same DHT as it was before finasteride. I know this is pure speculation, but ive heard others throw around the idea that maybe the DHT we produce now, is not the same as the DHT we produced pre-finasteride. For what reason I dont know…just a thought.
The form of TRT are you on?
I am on Testosterone Cream. This should have a very high DHT conversion. I reckon if I went to shots, it would be lower still.
If I remember correctly, shots have a lower conversion to E. So by switching to shots, take HCG and add DHT cream…maybe that would work. It sounds good in theory.
Even though my E2 is not that high (its only just higher than optimal), I still think ive got some E dominance happening just by how I feel…bloated and stuff. Maybe this is because the DHT is an E antagonist and my total E’s or E1 is getting out of control…or the DHT to T ratio is not high enough, and the E2 just needs to be bumped down a bit into middle of optimimum range. Hope that made sense!
When you say testosterone cream are you really talking about a cream, similar to that of moisturizers or are you talking about an alcohol based testosterone gel?
I have been prescribed both in the past and one offers an opportunity to try something and the other does not.
Its a cream, as in moisturing cream.
Are you talking about applying it to my nuts?
You knew where I was going.
Yes a small amount of testosterone cream can be applied in that area and it leads to a far greater conversion to DHT because of alpha 5 reductase receptors in that area. This is something that Dr Carruthers had some of his patients doing when it was suspected that there might be a problem converting enough testosterone to DHT.
Some andrologist also argue rightly or wrongly that it is generally preferable to have testosterone converting to DHT and DHT working as a metabolite than it is to directly apply DHT.
Not sure how much I go along with that as I have not seen any evidence to support the reasoning, but I guess with direct application you do lack the inherent properties of testosterone (anabolic muscular and bone effects and anti-fatigue properties) unless you are also on TRT.
DHT gel does have its place though, for treatment of gynecomastia for instance or for older men who suffer from BPH via aromatase of testosterone. Of course it is always possible that it may suit some people out there a little more than TRT for complex endocrine reasons not well understood; given there is an enormous variable in response between individuals when it comes to the effects of endocrine altering medications…horses for courses. For all the complex reasoning in the world there is a place for well prescribed and monitored trial and error, as simple as it appears it is something very much undervalued.
Anyway, you are obviously aware of the practice that I was implying.
If you haven’t tried this, it is an option, but it is one I would think is best mentioned to the treating doctor and monitored via pathology. That way you could see how the bloods were affected and alter the application according to symptoms and bloods.
If you have already tried it I presume it did not work one way or the other.
Yes I am trying since one of my doctors told me to and it has done nothing to relieve symptoms…I am yet to see how it has effected my blood tests. Only every few days though because it can cause atrophy of your testicles if done too much.
The biggest hint out of all of this that our problems are hormonal is the shrinkage of the penis. That can only be one of two things - estrogen dominance or lack of DHT.
BTW why is it only DHT cream that works on your nuts? Why not the gel? Is that because it burns your nuts?
Testosterone cream can be placed here and it is converted to a high level of DHT in theory, also it should increase testosterone levels a lot more because the skin allows for a much higher absobtion. The premise is that much less cream is required when used in this manner as replacement.
This would account for testicular atrophy seen in some- simply a high level of total androgens and a reduction in endgenous testosterone production.
The theory/general needs to be ascertained in each individual. You need to know what is happening with testosterone, DHT and other hormones via pathology in you as opposed to what is supposed to happen- this goes/is true for all individuals on all forms of endocrine affecting medications- presumption is the mother of all mistakes.
Andractim Dihydrotestosterone gel is not placed on this part of the body because A) it is not required as it is already DHT and does not require conversion from testosterone and B) because it is an alcohol based gel.
Testogel/Androgel, Testim gel or other compounded testosterone gels are not placed on this area again because they are alcohol based and like the DHT gel would be VERY uncomfortable. It would be like applying deep heat to your groin- not the best idea in the world.
P.S
If you are going to try and see how differing applications affects symptoms and bloods then it must be done in a manner that offers continuity and reliable test results and that means applying every day. Cycles are not part of transdermal testosterone replacement regimes and can result in questionable symptomatic response and blood test results.
I found this post on Meso regarding the use of DHT cream. I am getting very keen on trying it since my DHT numbers are mid range at best.
If u want to be logical theres more to it than u suggest.
Theres more options for penile shrinkage. To little e2, now if we dident have these problems on propecia why would u have less dht after u quit… the logical thing would be that yr dht increased alot and yr e2 was reduces, maybe to much… or it comes down to just low testosterone after quitting there isent enough to support both dht and e2 convertion.
Well…after I stopped finasteride, my DHT was way too low. When I got my T up really high, my DHT only hit midrange and my E was JUST above normal range. I am keen to see what difference it would make if I got my DHT in the upper third or even higher just to see what would happen. Its commone knowledge that DHT is responsible for libido and practically everything that makes you a man and I sure feel like I am lacking that.
I doubt E2 would be too low in my situation though it is possible for others. My T is not low as I stated above, it just seems DHT is lacking. Dr Shippen has previously mentioned about how finasteride could have swithced off a gene that converts T to DHT. DHT cream is worth a shot I think.
Based on my own test results, I have DHT in the upper limits of the range… yet still feel little to no libido. Doesn’t look like my ability for the 5AR enzyme to convert T --> DHT has been damaged… so what else could it be? Perhaps androgen receptor function has somehow been altered to not respond properly to DHT…
Alteration of androgen receptor function would only be possible if mutation occurs. This is only possible during cell replication, if genetic material is imperfectly copied.
Well, this might certainly be possible in the prostate. After taking fin, we did, afterall, experience significant apoptosis of prostate cells. Regeneration of those cells after ceasing the drug would meant that we fin users, in relation to non-fin users, would have experienced more replications of that prostate cell genetic material, and thus more of a liklihood for subsequent genetic error. You did, in fact, refer to an article dicussing androgen receptor mutations, at one point. I just dug around a little and couldn’t find it. But I believe that article made reference to the mechanism I’m speaking of.
I don’t think alteration of the prostate AR receptor could have any effect on libido, however. It might permanently decrease the size of the prosate (due to decreased androgen stimulation), but from at least my understanding, it would have no effect on sex hormone synthesis.
Is there any reason to believe that fin causes apoptosis in cells other than the prostate that also rely on the androgen receptor for proper function?
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I think the whole idea of problem beeing down to genemutation or similar is unlogical and very farfetched.
Most of us have good days maybe even a good week… i doubt genemutation can reverse during a day or 2 every now and then…
Sideeffects started upon starting the drug for lots of ppl in here within days off swolling the 1st pill. Doubt that time can affect the 5ar gene expression…
PPl in here revocer, i for one feel ok on t-gel, raises other issues but symstoms is gone. Some others tried dopamine agonists and recovered etc etc. I dont think u guys think that the guys who recovered have/had a different problem than yrselfs? If u dont think so then just forget about gene mutation and similar.