DHT and Testosterone and a theory on the key to a treatment

General Discussion
#1

“Note: Contrary to finasteride, which is highly selective for the type II isoform of the 5-ar enzyme, dustasteride, which has been found to reduce circulating DHT levels by >90% is a pan-5-ar inhibitor. It is thusly no wonder that 0.5mg/day of dustasteride prevented the increase in lean mass in female-to-male transsexuals who were treated with 1,000mg testosterone-undeconate for 54 weeks (Meriggiola. 2008).
Although testosterone and not DHT appears to be the major hormonal driving force of actual increases in muscular size (not strength!), the results of the Meriggiola study, where the total (>90%) blockade of all three of the 5-ar isoforms by dustasteride (see red box, above) inhibited the muscle-building effects of 1,000mg testosterone-undeconate clearly suggest that the reduction of at least small amounts of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is a necessary prerequisite for the testosterone-induced increases in lean muscle mass. Whether a critical threshold as for circulating DHT levels exists, or whether it was the dustasteride induced blockade of the local reduction of testosterone to DHT by 5-ar type III right in the skeletal muscle that was responsible for this effect will yet have to be established in future studies.”

I maintain the belief that this condition can be treated with Dihydrotestosterone AND Testosterone, I have yet to hear of anyone on here who has used both together. Also, Dihydrotestosterone used long term with Testosterone, at least for 6 months to a year in non-responsive individuals. I came upon the above study doing some research tonight, since so little is written about Avodart (and I am only 2 weeks off and it has a 5 weeks half-life, second longest half life of any drug).
The only research I have found with significance is the above study done on transsexuals, often Avodart is used for female to male transsexuals (I can see why). I maintain the view that we are genetically pre-disposed to respond to these drugs stronger than others. The key to a treatment to this disorder lies with designer DHT drugs, designer DHT drugs work differently than DHT and through a different pathway than DHT. So for those who do not respond to DHT, they may respond to a synthetic DHT, anyone have any thoughts?

#2

Unfortunately PFS is much more complex than that. If you browse around you can see that many people have tried raising directly T and DHT, but supplementing DHT it is neither sufficient nor necessary for a recovery. For example you can have normal DHT and still have zero libido and erectile dysfunction. Feel free to try T boosters and Stanodrol, they may give you some relief, but not prevent side effects and another hormonal crash. once the condition is acquired, abnormal Low/high DHT and 3alpha-diol G levels are the effect, but not the cause of PFS. I wish in the FAQ section of this forum there was a summary page with what has been ascertained so far, so as to save time for everyone.

#3

If you search the user “Enden” its pretty obvious there’s an entire group of pfs males who constantly try various protocols in an attempt to counter balance their sides with various kinds of exogenous testosterone, topical dht, various serms, thyroid hormones, hydrocortisone etc etc.

At best, these seem to be nothing more than a bandaid which involves constant rebalancing of hormones, an intimate understanding of endocrinology and funds that quite frankly a lot of men don’t have any access to.

On top of that relying on exogenous hormones can contribute to heart disease and a whole plethora of other health conditions. Thinking logically it also totally rules out the potential of any natural recovery.

I realise I’m new here and maybe not as badly hit as a lot of the guys but trt is a lifetime commitment and should only be considered as a last resort… To be honest wholeheartedly recommending it is irresponsible and potentially very dangerous considering the fragile state some guys here are in.

#4

Thanks Elijah, I refined my theory, now I believe it is damage to 5AR enzyme production, those enzymes reduce testosterone to DHT, but they each have functions like organs almost. So the side effects we are all having are as a result of not enough 5AR enzymes, we inject testosterone use up all our 5AR enzymes then crash, then have a spike in estrogen as the rest of the test is aromatized. The key is to increase 5AR activity, I am doing that now with success.

#5

based on what? are you able to check your current 5AR levels? i don’t think this is true because the 5AR enzymes are still functioning correctly. most people have normal or high levels of DHT. i don’t see people with low levels of DHT, which one would speculate would be a result of low 5AR enzymes.

#6

I had low levels of DHT

#7

Well Elijah, not everyone has the same thing, and what is normal DHT? The problem is not DIRECTLY DHT, but indirectly, the 5 AR enzymes reduce testosterone to DHT, but they also have other functions. The 5 AR 3 enzyme when repressed causes ocular and neurological problems, sound familiar? The 5 AR 1 and 2 are all linked to libido, muscles, all the stuff we are all having problems with. I am not saying ALL 5AR enzymes are being blocked, but some simply aren’t producing enough. Perhaps their body manages to reduce enough test to DHT, but they still don’t have enough enzymes.
I know this as when I have symptoms my oily skin shuts off, when I am better it turns back on, and the ONLY cause of that is 5AR activity. Also 5AR reduces test to DHT which regulates estrogen and gives you that tight chiseled masculine look. When I go through crashes I get water retention, the puffy look I had on finasteride, that tells me my body isn’t reducing test to DHT and it is aromatizing it and converting it to estrogen.
So far HCG and Protodioscin has helped me and others here, so my theories have all stood the test of debate and practice so far. Remember that some here may have other problems that they think are PFS, there are a lot of diseases out there. I also don’t believe tests can tell anything, when I had my test done I was feeling better during the blood work as I had just injected HCG so had a 5AR surge. These 5 AR enzymes have functions, when they are depleted (which doesn’t happen in normal men) it results in these strange crashes.

#8

do you have any research to back up what you are saying?

i just searched and found HCG actually DECREASES 5ar:

The present study tested the hypothesis that LH/hCG may regulate the type 2 5 alpha-reductase and androgen receptor protein levels in skin. The skin samples obtained from women undergoing abdominal laparotomy or abdominoplasty were incubated in the presence or absence of hCG. Western blotting was then performed to determine the response of type 2 5 alpha-reductase and androgen receptors. The results demonstrated that treatment with hCG resulted in a significant time- and dose-dependent, although modest, decrease in 5 alpha-reductase and androgen receptor levels compared to the controls. These effects were mimicked by LH, but not by other hormones in the glycoprotein hormone family, including alpha- and beta-subunits of hCG. Although the biological and clinical importance of this regulation remains to be determined, these findings reaffirm that human skin is among the nongonadal tissues that respond to LH and hCG treatment.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9589692

The decrease in 5AR, you may be feeling positive effects because many people report going BACK ON finasteride (thus, resuming the 5AR block), usually results in a better condition temporarily.

However, your thoughts on Protodioscin are accurate:

Protodioscin acts by stimulating the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase, which plays a role in the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (Viktorof et al. 1994). In addition, protodioscin also stimulates the hypothalamus secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH), but not of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). Protodioscin is shown to increase the density of the Leydig, but not that of the Sertoli cells, and to improve the level of spermatogonia and to increase the production of spermatocytes and spermatids without changing the diameter of the seminiferous tubules. Physically, protodioscin treatment results in increased male fertility and sexual functions.
libilov.com/en/clinical_stud … d_1996.htm

You can do what you want, but it would be helpful if you could post some research, like how 5AR is responsible for people crashing? I don’t see how this is possible. And losing oil skin is not only caused by 5AR, where did you get this from? What about dehydration or a under functioning thyroid or a diet change? These all result in differing changes in oily skin.

#9

All I know is thank heavens for asparagus, this has been incredible. I am also experiencing much better focus and concentration!! I think the first pill of finasteride fucks EVERYONE up, those who crash later it could be because stopping finasteride drops your testo 20%

#10

what does asparagus have to do with this? can you elaborate on your reasoning on why it is helping?

#11

What am I a scientist?? All I know is since I started this regimen I have felt amazing . Better focus, sexually powerful like Prefin, penis now is warm and hangs, not frozen and cold. I am fucking a sexual being again!! I have awoken!! 12 straight days now. Better energy, NOT GETTING TIRED AFTER EJACULATION, penis stays engorged after ejaculation.

The only strange thing that has happened, and it happened to justquitdust, is my semen is more watery. Sex is pleasurable again

Bryce54- remember when you couldn’t go 1-2 days without relieving yourself??? That’s back!!!

#12

Surely there’s a reason you decided to try it… ?

#13

I liked what that guy said about protodioscin, I found that asparagus was loaded with it so that’s why I tried it, it’s also a treatment for metabolic disorders which is what I feel we suffer from.

So far, best decision if my life

#14

I am not going to ask you too “trust me,” but I posted a couple things about HCG that said it induced 5AR activity, the research you posted I believe was in women. In men it seems to induce 5AR activity, also none of those things you mentioned are the cause of my skin being dry or oily. I was an executive of a cosmetic dermatology company and plastic surgery, I know a lot about this stuff. When I start feeling better, high libido, muscles pump up, it all coincides with induced 5ar activity as my skin becomes oily and I break out. How do I know? I took Avodart for a very different reason than others here, I took it to shut off my oily skin, only, I had no idea it was connected to so much else!
The reason Finatruth is feeling better is because Asparagus has Protodioscin in it which is a precursor to 5AR enzymes and supports my theory. I have researched the 5AR enzymes and their purposes and found that all the symptoms people are suffering seem to be connected to the 5AR enzymes and what they do. If 5AR enzymes were not being blocked during these crashes I would have oily skin. When I inject testosterone I feel good at first, then my body uses up all its 5AR enzymes and I crash, and my oily skin stops, everything stops.
In infants with 5AR deficiencies they use HCG as therapy btw, I believe my theories explain why we all do not react to testosterone as we should. 5AR enzymes reduce testosterone to DHT which then regulates estrogen, you run out of those enzymes, it explains why we feel like shit. The human body wasn’t designed and did not evolve to run out of 5AR enzymes! These drugs damaged our ability to produce these enzymes, it fucking sucks. When I used to inject testosterone I would feel great but my skin would get sooo oily, it was horrible, for the 2 weeks I was better my skin was super oily. I can tell when I am feeling ok or not by simply looking at my skin.
Your point about Finasteride is interesting, I did go back on a tiny dose after I thought I recovered, but it made things worse. I was on finasteride for 13 years before all this happened, I believe it is possible that our systems are somehow adapted to work with the effects of finasteride, but taking more only furthers the damage before temporarily giving our system the effects it is used to.
I am not saying HCG is a cure, but I do feel better 24 hours after I inject it, but certainly not 100%, just better, I don’t inject too much of it as there are side effects and consequences etc…