DHT and NOS production

[NG_F]

I was speaking with Dr.Irwin Goldstein and he confirmed that lack of DHT will cause insufficient amounts of nitric Oxide Synthase.

This will acount to a lot of side effects that I and a few members have been experiencing.

NOS in the brain is required for release of various neurotransmitters including acetylcholine,GAbAa,serotonin and dopamine.

It is also responsible for REM sleep.

eNOS or endothelial NOS is responsible for vascular functioning and he said that the supression could lead to damage to tissue over long periods of time.

My question especially to MEW,as he first expressed this relationship of Dht and NOS, is is it the enzyme that must be reinstated from DHT levels rising or can we supplement to create NO with supplements such as L-Arginine and Citrulline?

Keep in mind that although we introduce these substrates into the body,they are useless until we generate enough enzymatic functioning to convert them to Nitric Oxide.

I’ve read that topical minoxidil 5% or greater has been appllied to the glans of the penis with success,as it increases endothelial NO without the need for the enzyme.Will this prevent the enzyme from returning to normal if we try and induce NO ourselves?

I dont know how you would compound minoxidil 5% without alcohol,as to avoid dryness and irritation,although it may not be that bad.Has anyone tried this?

Anyone with opinions or info chime in.

[Mew]

I was speaking with Dr.Irwin Goldstein and he confirmed that lack of DHT will cause insufficient amounts of nitric Oxide Synthase.

Did you meet with him or speak to him on the phone?

This will acount to a lot of side effects that I and a few members have been experiencing.

NOS in the brain is required for release of various neurotransmitters including acetylcholine,GAbAa,serotonin and dopamine.

It is also responsible for REM sleep.

eNOS or endothelial NOS is responsible for vascular functioning and he said that the supression could lead to damage to tissue over long periods of time.

Are these your personal thoughts or are you paraphrasing what he told you?

My question especially to MEW,as he first expressed this relationship of Dht and NOS, is is it the enzyme that must be reinstated from DHT levels rising or can we supplement to create NO with supplements such as L-Arginine and Citrulline?

Since we do not know wether 5AR2 enzyme (and thus most of our DHT) has been irreversibly damaged after Finasteride use (since 5AR1 can contribute to serum DHT levels, and nobody has had Adiol-G blood test or genital skin fibroblast cultures to test 5AR2 enzymes/AR receptor binding activity), your question with regard to enzyme reinstatement (NOS activity) cannot be answered with certainty.

However, taking L-Arginine has been shown to boost endogenous nitric oxide levels, although dosagess required generally range from ~2.5-5g per day to do so, from what I recall reading… although:

Keep in mind that although we introduce these substrates into the body,they are useless until we generate enough enzymatic functioning to convert them to Nitric Oxide.

Please clarify this point. What enzymatic functioning are you referring to? Do you have sources to backup this claim?

According to endo.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/136/4/1495.pdf

“… There is considerable evidence supporting the role of nitric oxide (NO) as the main mediator of penile erection, although ancillary mechanisms helping in the relaxation of the corpora cavernosa smooth muscle cannot be discarded (10-12).”

“… The respective roles of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in the maintenance of the NO-mediated erectile response need to be defined because DHT is the active androgen in penile growth and the testosterone/DHT conversion in the penis decays considerably with age (181), which coincides with the decrease in erectile response observed in aged rats (13).”

"… castration in rats decreases penile erection and testosterone restores it. We have significantly extended these findings by demonstrating that the most likely mechanism is a castration-induced reduction in the level of penile NOS, which is prevented by the testosterone metabolite, DHT. "

“… The fact that DHT is the active androgen in preventing the impairment of NOS activity and penile erection in castrated rats may have a considerable physiological significance and explain certain types of erectile dysfunction.”

“… However, once the erectile dysfunction occurs, physiological levels of DHT or pharmacological doses of testosterone would be required to restore it.”

The above of course corroborates Dr Goldstein’s comments.

I’ve read that topical minoxidil 5% or greater has been appllied to the glans of the penis with success,as it increases endothelial NO without the need for the enzyme.

Where did you read this? Source?

Will this prevent the enzyme from returning to normal if we try and induce NO ourselves?

Again, are you referring to NOS? I doubt taking L-Arginine will prevent the enzyme from “returning to normal”, regardless. It will simply increase NO production, if its possible after Finasteride (my guess).

[NG_F]

To Mew and others:

Did you meet with him or speak to him on the phone?

I spoke with him on the phone.

Are these your personal thoughts or are you paraphrasing what he told you?

He was explaining that during the time on fin,that I was not getting full NO activity to endothelium tissue and that permanent vascular changes and tissue damage may have occurred.He explained how urgent it was to bring dht back up to par.He advised me to make an appoitment to come down and be seen.
The effects on acetylcholine release,dopamine and serotonin were from what I read.I dont have link right now.

Here’s some good info re:NOS and REM sleep…http://books.google.ca/books?id=r9k4CkerWLIC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=NOS+and+the+brain&source=web&ots=rEpOh4y4ri&sig=QNfjS67Q5_6jgZ_XC7eM0LVanLg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA185,M1

Please clarify this point. What enzymatic functioning are you referring to? Do you have sources to backup this claim?

I was referring to the NOS enzyme.Without reinstatement via optimum levels of dht,all the supplements and substrates will be useless ie)L-Arginine,Citrullline and pycnogenol,although I will try these and PDE5 inhibitor(Viagara) to encourage arterial flow and preserve function until my dht levels return.If they dont after a while,then I will use proviron or andractim to encourage NOS reinstatement.

I’ve read that topical minoxidil 5% or greater has been appllied to the glans of the penis with success,as it increases endothelial NO without the need for the enzyme…I read numerous articles.I googled Minoxidil for ED and Minoxidil for the penis.

Again, are you referring to NOS? I doubt taking L-Arginine will prevent the enzyme from “returning to normal”, regardless. It will simply increase NO production, if its possible after Finasteride (my guess).

Do you truly believe that NOS will return to normal Mew? I do! It’s like when a suicidal aromatase inhibitor like aromasin is used for long periods of time.the (estrogenic)aromatase will always return and so does the production of estrogen from the conversion of testosterone.

Dr.Paul Cotteril, a hair transplant doctor involved in early Merck studies for proscar/propecia spoke with me on the phone last thursday and he believed the enzyme to be able to recover 100%.

Are you still seeking 3alpha androsenediol glucoronate testing and genetic pcr analysis for 5AR mutation?

[Mew]

He was explaining that during the time on fin,that I was not getting full NO activity to endothelium tissue and that permanent vascular changes and tissue damage may have occurred

Did he mean permanent as in irreversible, or reversible via DHT/Testosterone treatment? From articles I have read, it seems androgen replacement can reverse a lot of tissue damage in the penis.

He explained how urgent it was to bring dht back up to par

Do you have bloodwork? What if your DHT is already high (although again, without Adiol-G we will not know wether DHT is from 5AR1 or II)?

Here’s some good info re:NOS and REM sleep…

Very interesting… as it also correlates with a lot of users here who have had sleep problems both while on and since taking the drug.

Side note: over the past 2 months I have occasionally experimented with small doses of L-Arginine prior to bedtime (500mg - 1000mg). I’ve noticed that sometimes when I take it, I have more vivid dreams and feel more “refreshed” in the morning compared when I don’[t take it. Wether this is my mind playing tricks on me, I don’t know… I have yet to up the dose to the 2-5g range, and most studies I have read do not know the longterm conseqences of L-Arginine supplementation beyond 6 months, so I am leary. Still, an interesting correlation with the material you posted.

Without reinstatement via optimum levels of dht,all the supplements and substrates will be useless

Again, what if one’s DHT is tested and comes back within range/normal? The question then is, is 5AR2 functioning correctly in order for NOS to function properly.

If they dont after a while,then I will use proviron or andractim to encourage NOS reinstatement.

I’m hoping you’d do this under a doc’s supervision. Taking extraneous DHT may have negative feedback on the HTPA and lower T levels:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1421

I’ve read that topical minoxidil 5% or greater has been appllied to the glans of the penis with success,as it increases endothelial NO without the need for the enzyme

Interesting… however, be aware Minoxidil is a vasodilator and may have negative effects on blood pressure, due to systemic absorption.

Dr.Paul Cotteril, a hair transplant doctor involved in early Merck studies for proscar/propecia spoke with me on the phone last thursday and he believed the enzyme to be able to recover 100%.

If that’s the case then why do some men with apparently normal DHT levels still have problems with libido, erections, shrinkage, sensitivity etc?

Are you still seeking 3alpha androsenediol glucoronate testing and genetic pcr analysis for 5AR mutation?

Hopefully once a doc will be willing to do so, yes.

[NG_F]

Did he mean permanent as in irreversible, or reversible via DHT/Testosterone treatment? From articles I have read, it seems androgen replacement can reverse a lot of tissue damage in the penis.

He didn’t say,just that tissue was not being fully satisfied during the time on fin bc of the NOS deprivation.

Do you have bloodwork? What if your DHT is already high (although again, without Adiol-G we will not know wether DHT is from 5AR1 or II)?

I have many tests that should be back soon.DHT is included.I will post when they return.
Will Adiol-G determine which enzyme is working for sure? Interesting! I will get my doc to refer for test asap if so. Quest does it.Code is 5236 for $23075 Hope you find out soon as well Mew.

Very interesting… as it also correlates with a lot of users here who have had sleep problems both while on and since taking the drug.

Side note: over the past 2 months I have occasionally experimented with small doses of L-Arginine prior to bedtime (500mg - 1000mg). I’ve noticed that sometimes when I take it, I have more vivid dreams and feel more “refreshed” in the morning compared when I don’[t take it. Wether this is my mind playing tricks on me, I don’t know… I have yet to up the dose to the 2-5g range, and most studies I have read do not know the longterm conseqences of L-Arginine supplementation beyond 6 months, so I am leary. Still, an interesting correlation with the material you posted.

I want to try prelox.Have you heard of it? pycnogenol/L-Arginine combo.

Here is some good info from pubmed…http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17703218?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851125?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Interstingly enough,I didn’t know they can test for e-NOS via the spermatazoa.What do you think Mew?

Again, what if one’s DHT is tested and comes back within range/normal? The question then is, is 5AR2 functioning correctly in order for NOS to function properly.

I’m not sure,but I dont think that dht can return to optimum levels without propper 5AR functioning.I will check my dht levels every 2-3 months.However dht can still be supplemented with T replacement if needed,as DHT is what determines NOS efficiency with a corresponding NO increase I believe.

I’m hoping you’d do this under a doc’s supervision. Taking extraneous DHT may have negative feedback on the HTPA and lower T levels:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1421

Absolutely!

Interesting… however, be aware Minoxidil is a vasodilator and may have negative effects on blood pressure, due to systemic absorption.

Yes thanks.I am aware.I have been using it on my hair for the last 4months.I will try this if needed.

If that’s the case then why do some men with apparently normal DHT levels still have problems with libido, erections, shrinkage, sensitivity etc?

Good question! I believe it could be from other organs and piuitary that was affected.As well as signalling pathways in the brain to penis and neurotransmitters as well.I’m leaving no stone unturned Dammit!

I will investigate and try to sync everything,including the possibility of chlamydia pneumoniae,mycoplasma pneumoniae,IGG and IGM.