Copper poisoning

General Discussion
#21

This is GREAT news! You’ve responed positively. You’re feeling horny as hell? Thats awsome!!!

What can happen when you start taking zinc is that your body will start to flush out the copper. This is what can make you feel bad initially. Then its a case of how much copper needs to come out (how long is a ball of string?). So keep at it and just take it at your own pace, but dont be put off by feeling worse a little.

Your doctor sounds very switched on. You’re doing the right thing working this through with him. I have heard about copper being bio-unavailable and it leading to copper toxicity. Beleive it or not copper is needed to synthesise copper elimination. Its called hidden copper toxicity. Ask Letsconvenience about it on his thread, im sure he will shine more light on it.

You should have about 50mg of zinc daily whether you are deficient or not. Men need this much day to day.

Please, keep us posted on how this turns out.

#22

Please check out the following post:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4111

There is a link to iodine usage, thyroid function, and copper. I’m interpreting it that if we’re low in iodine thyroid function becomes impaired and we cannot use the copper properly in our system so it could build up over time. It could also be that if thyroid function is impaired and we are low on iodine copper can build up.

#23

Any answers?

#24

Check his posts from last year and see what you think.

#25

odd.
I also had a non detectable 24 hr copper urine test, and a random non detectable copper urine test as well.
My blood copper levels have been in range, ceruloplasmin and copper serum. Ive also tested these at the same time to detect “free unbound copper” this has been elevated at times past 15. it has fallen in range when ceruloplasmin was higher. This free copper might not be significant, especially with none detected in the urine. This combo is still odd though.

I saw a study once that copper was the only metal capable of inhibiting 5ar type 1 and 2. Theres also a interplay with retinoic acid, as its capable of raising ceruloplasmin. Someone thought once this was causing a copper deficiency or using up copper. I saw it differently that copper might be repurposed to cause damage and oxidative stress, to kill bacteria like p.acnes. Dont know.

Did you know fruit flies instead of a stomach they have copper cells? This is an acidic region that accumulates copper and generates something very similar to stomach acid. it regulates bacteria.
helps compartmentalize the gi tract. They said when this compartmentalization is lost, it speeds up the aging process.
Too much or too little copper weakens immunity, they are also second guessing why they are finding excess copper in the brain of alzheimer’s patients.They are wondering if its a last ditch effort to stop bacteria translocation in the brain.

#26

Interesting.

What are your symptoms? I have MS/ALS-like neurological symptoms, muscle twitches, weakness, etc. plus cognitive ones like brain fog.

My initial theory was that hair loss was caused by a copper toxicity and/or progesterone and zinc deficiency. Finasteride, as a kind of synthetic progesterone molecule, counters the copper excess. My thought was that I swung too far in the opposite direction by causing a copper deficiency now, which is why the ceruloplasmin/urine copper is low.

Weirdly, I get bad reactions to taking things high in copper such as liver. But I still believe I am deficient, just that the transport mechanism is somehow not functioning.

#27

me too.

youve tested low? Do you have that ceruloplasmin exact number and range?
Id be extremely careful with copper, if something abnormal is going on and something gets “touched” by free copper thats not supposed to, the damage can be permanent. Thats putting it simply for now.

#28

yea Ceruloplasmin bottom normal range was 0.20 ug/dl. Mine was 0.19. My serum copper was normal but lowish, and my urine copper was nonexistent.

That was an abnormal finding. Most of the times if it comes out to be that insignificant the lab values are wrong, or there is deficiency.

#29

Thats too weird seeing this low ceruloplasmin in more than a few people after doing a quick search.
Did you calculate your free copper? Take the tests at the same time?

So 3 thoughts,
1 its nothing, but
This seems like too much of a coincidence to have these numbers low in quite a few people.

2 Everyone is still posting high free copper using the calculator.
So copper dysregulation, like so many other things not being regulated proper. Dont supplement Copper. (the fact that its not showing up in urine is some other type of copper accumulation)

3 The free copper number is not accurate, (I have seen this in a study, even in copper deficiency, free copper was still elevated)
especially when 0 copper is showing up in urine (opposite thought here)
Copper is being used up as an immunological backup to something else going on.
Meaning we have the same diet as most normal folk, but immune stress is using up copper prematurely as a second line defense.
if you really wanted to pursue this that ceruloplasmin number might move after you took a dosage of copper.
But again you got people saying they are having problems after just 1 pill of fin.

Cations inhibit specifically type I 5 alpha-reductase found in human skin.

The results showed that type I 5 alpha-reductase was strongly inhibited by Cd, Cu, and Zn and moderately inhibited by Ni and Fe, with 50% inhibitory concentration values of 0.9, 1.9, 2.0, 169.2, and 174.3 microM, respectively. In contrast, type II 5 alpha-reductase activity was inhibited only by Cu, with a 50% inhibitory concentration value of 19.2 microM

#30

Free copper was 32 ug/dl (twice as high as it should be). This extremely high. For the record, I have no kayser-fleyscher rings, and since the urine copper was so low they ruled out Wilsons. I will do a retest of these values.

Obviously we have to rule out Wilson’s, but I think we clearly have copper dysregulation. It would explain our neurological symptoms. Many times people here tend to think hormones are primary. But I think they may be reflections of mineral status.

On another note, ALS sufferers have clear indications of severe copper deficiency in the spinal cord. Meanwhile, MS sufferers have excess copper.

Excessive and Deficient copper status induces the same symptoms, more or less.

I am afraid to supplement with copper as each time I do it induces some bad symptoms. Zinc doesn’t appear to help me too much either. I will do some repeat testing.

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#31

I should also note that my urine copper was nonexistent as well. This is bizarre.

#32

just had my ceruloplasmin retested. I’ll post results in a few days.

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#33

Just got my results. (that was fast) it was 29. In good range. I used Quest Diagnostics. What lab do you use?
A few more quick thoughts on this.
So Copper is capable of having 5ar inhibitor properties,

Protective Effects of Lactobacillus plantarum CCFM8246 against Copper Toxicity in Mice

this study showed that L . plantarum CCFM8246 has protective function against acute copper toxicity in mice. It is the first time that the effects of lactobacilli on reducing intestinal copper absorption, decreasing tissue copper accumulation, ameliorating renal and hepatic oxidative stress, and alleviating hepatic damage are revealed. These interesting results demonstrated that L . plantarum CCFM8246 might have the potential to be a supplementary element to provide a novel dietary therapeutic strategy against acute copper toxicity.

Effect of dietary copper level on the gut microbiota and its correlation with serum inflammatory cytokines in Sprague-Dawley rats.

The results suggest that dietary copper level may have a direct impact on circulating inflammatory cytokines in the serum, perhaps inducing an inflammatory response by altering the microbial composition of rat feces. Serum TNF-α could be the chief responder to excessive copper exposure.

and again you could always test the theory that your actually low by what I mentioned, but keep those potential 5ar inhibitor properties in mind.