When i go to his house again i’ll get the name
A sign of prolonged copper toxicity is the manifestation of the “Kayser-Fleischer ring,” described as a dark ring (copper sediment) on the cornea around the iris. Here are some images of the ring (a google image search).
google.com/images?hl=en&clie … 08&bih=614
Does anyone here on the forum have this ring?
Also, attached is a paper from the 1970s hypothesizing that the manifestation of the ring may be correlated with the manifestation of neurological issues, i.e. speech, movement; that indeed were cleared up with treatment with a copper-excreting drug.
It seems the best way to start testing is to get a serum copper and ceruloplasmin test. And a 24 hour urine collection for copper excretion. For those interested, here is a link to a relatively inexpensive lab middleman for those in the US (labsmd.com).
I got by “RBC copper” tested, which is what my doctor said is most reliable for this kind of analysis (rather than hair or serum copper).
It is exactly in the middle of the range. As a footnote, I’d like to add that my E2 has always been very low.
Again with your “filtering” of posts…! This is not spam!..you know it and I know it.
Are you waiting for a complete scientific manual on why we are all messed up? I can assure you, you wont get it in our life time…and you certainly wont find it on the internet.
This biased “moderating” has gotta stop Mew. Please. For the sake of everyone here.
If you keep disregarding all things natural then this forum is severely compromised. If anyone else agrees with me please chime in. We are making some very good headway with the Copper/Zinc theory. I dont understand why it keeps getting shot down. Having an opinion is one thing Mew, but if claiming that information on copper toxicity syndrome is now spam is a new low.
Also its commone knowledge that with this “Post Finasteride Syndrome”, no two people are the same in terms of treatments that worked, blood work or diagnosis of various imbalances in the body, be it hormones, basic blood work, vitamins and mineral imbalances - whatever!
This is a “Syndrome”. Not an exact science. In the same way Chronic Fatigue Syndrome carries a whole host of varying abnormalities and each patient must be treated individually. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is also called “Gulf War Syndrome” - why? Because the troops who were over there fighting on the ground ingested so many toxic chemicals that it overloaded their liver, leading to metabolic problems that are identical to those of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. It IS chronic fatigue syndrome. Find the toxin, and detox it, and most of the time, the problem is gone. I have a doc who specialises in it and he has just about seen it all. And he has very good success using liver detoxification profiles, hair mineral analysis, gut microbial analysis and other forms of CUTTING EDGE MEDICINE.
So what im saying is, just because the Copper/Zinc theory doesnt fit your circumstances Mew (and this is still questionable) it is totally not acceptable for you to dismiss this theory alltogether when we now have 5 people who have tested high for copper and god knows how many more.
Good work Tim. You need to think outside the box with this stuff and be pro-active. Please get back to us with the results, im sure you will. Good luck.
Yep it sure can Onlyhope. Thanks for the link…
I will tell you this. I have been to some of the top doctors in Australia about this. Like REALLLLY smart guys who will sit there in front of you and really try and nut this out together. These are doctors who are head doctors for professional football teams and professional athletes. And they SWEAR by Hair Mineral Analysis. Its cutting edge medicine…!
You will find that anti-aging doctors are miles ahead of everyone else including endos. You will also find that they incorporate vitamin and mineral tests as well as liver function tests. The big word is TOXICITY.
j899
I went to the doc this morning about my copper results.
You probably saw my urine was out of range low. Doc thought my body was retaining it/not processing it, although he admitted he didn’t know much about it. He was extremly interested though.
He is going to suss out more on it and find the right specialist to refer me to, was a very positive meeting, i have finally found a doc who is interested. He has not heard of any fin related problems but fully understands why there could be such problems.
He says he has dealt with other people who have been messed up by metals but no one from copper yet. So i will pursue this “Quackery” to see if anything comes of it as i feel it is worth a shot.
Last week i supplemented zinc all week and felt a bit shit doing it, so i stopped. But yesterday and today i have felt much better so i wonder if the effects of the zinc are starting to show up. Im actually feeling horny as hell and my erections are bigger…just wont go up on its own 
Could be getting better with time but who the hell would know.
This is GREAT news! You’ve responed positively. You’re feeling horny as hell? Thats awsome!!!
What can happen when you start taking zinc is that your body will start to flush out the copper. This is what can make you feel bad initially. Then its a case of how much copper needs to come out (how long is a ball of string?). So keep at it and just take it at your own pace, but dont be put off by feeling worse a little.
Your doctor sounds very switched on. You’re doing the right thing working this through with him. I have heard about copper being bio-unavailable and it leading to copper toxicity. Beleive it or not copper is needed to synthesise copper elimination. Its called hidden copper toxicity. Ask Letsconvenience about it on his thread, im sure he will shine more light on it.
You should have about 50mg of zinc daily whether you are deficient or not. Men need this much day to day.
Please, keep us posted on how this turns out.
Please check out the following post:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4111
There is a link to iodine usage, thyroid function, and copper. I’m interpreting it that if we’re low in iodine thyroid function becomes impaired and we cannot use the copper properly in our system so it could build up over time. It could also be that if thyroid function is impaired and we are low on iodine copper can build up.
Any answers?
Check his posts from last year and see what you think.
odd.
I also had a non detectable 24 hr copper urine test, and a random non detectable copper urine test as well.
My blood copper levels have been in range, ceruloplasmin and copper serum. Ive also tested these at the same time to detect “free unbound copper” this has been elevated at times past 15. it has fallen in range when ceruloplasmin was higher. This free copper might not be significant, especially with none detected in the urine. This combo is still odd though.
I saw a study once that copper was the only metal capable of inhibiting 5ar type 1 and 2. Theres also a interplay with retinoic acid, as its capable of raising ceruloplasmin. Someone thought once this was causing a copper deficiency or using up copper. I saw it differently that copper might be repurposed to cause damage and oxidative stress, to kill bacteria like p.acnes. Dont know.
Did you know fruit flies instead of a stomach they have copper cells? This is an acidic region that accumulates copper and generates something very similar to stomach acid. it regulates bacteria.
helps compartmentalize the gi tract. They said when this compartmentalization is lost, it speeds up the aging process.
Too much or too little copper weakens immunity, they are also second guessing why they are finding excess copper in the brain of alzheimer’s patients.They are wondering if its a last ditch effort to stop bacteria translocation in the brain.
Interesting.
What are your symptoms? I have MS/ALS-like neurological symptoms, muscle twitches, weakness, etc. plus cognitive ones like brain fog.
My initial theory was that hair loss was caused by a copper toxicity and/or progesterone and zinc deficiency. Finasteride, as a kind of synthetic progesterone molecule, counters the copper excess. My thought was that I swung too far in the opposite direction by causing a copper deficiency now, which is why the ceruloplasmin/urine copper is low.
Weirdly, I get bad reactions to taking things high in copper such as liver. But I still believe I am deficient, just that the transport mechanism is somehow not functioning.
me too.
youve tested low? Do you have that ceruloplasmin exact number and range?
Id be extremely careful with copper, if something abnormal is going on and something gets “touched” by free copper thats not supposed to, the damage can be permanent. Thats putting it simply for now.
yea Ceruloplasmin bottom normal range was 0.20 ug/dl. Mine was 0.19. My serum copper was normal but lowish, and my urine copper was nonexistent.
That was an abnormal finding. Most of the times if it comes out to be that insignificant the lab values are wrong, or there is deficiency.
Thats too weird seeing this low ceruloplasmin in more than a few people after doing a quick search.
Did you calculate your free copper? Take the tests at the same time?
So 3 thoughts,
1 its nothing, but
This seems like too much of a coincidence to have these numbers low in quite a few people.
2 Everyone is still posting high free copper using the calculator.
So copper dysregulation, like so many other things not being regulated proper. Dont supplement Copper. (the fact that its not showing up in urine is some other type of copper accumulation)
3 The free copper number is not accurate, (I have seen this in a study, even in copper deficiency, free copper was still elevated)
especially when 0 copper is showing up in urine (opposite thought here)
Copper is being used up as an immunological backup to something else going on.
Meaning we have the same diet as most normal folk, but immune stress is using up copper prematurely as a second line defense.
if you really wanted to pursue this that ceruloplasmin number might move after you took a dosage of copper.
But again you got people saying they are having problems after just 1 pill of fin.
Cations inhibit specifically type I 5 alpha-reductase found in human skin.
The results showed that type I 5 alpha-reductase was strongly inhibited by Cd, Cu, and Zn and moderately inhibited by Ni and Fe, with 50% inhibitory concentration values of 0.9, 1.9, 2.0, 169.2, and 174.3 microM, respectively. In contrast, type II 5 alpha-reductase activity was inhibited only by Cu, with a 50% inhibitory concentration value of 19.2 microM
Free copper was 32 ug/dl (twice as high as it should be). This extremely high. For the record, I have no kayser-fleyscher rings, and since the urine copper was so low they ruled out Wilsons. I will do a retest of these values.
Obviously we have to rule out Wilson’s, but I think we clearly have copper dysregulation. It would explain our neurological symptoms. Many times people here tend to think hormones are primary. But I think they may be reflections of mineral status.
On another note, ALS sufferers have clear indications of severe copper deficiency in the spinal cord. Meanwhile, MS sufferers have excess copper.
Excessive and Deficient copper status induces the same symptoms, more or less.
I am afraid to supplement with copper as each time I do it induces some bad symptoms. Zinc doesn’t appear to help me too much either. I will do some repeat testing.
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I should also note that my urine copper was nonexistent as well. This is bizarre.
just had my ceruloplasmin retested. I’ll post results in a few days.
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Just got my results. (that was fast) it was 29. In good range. I used Quest Diagnostics. What lab do you use?
A few more quick thoughts on this.
So Copper is capable of having 5ar inhibitor properties,
Protective Effects of Lactobacillus plantarum CCFM8246 against Copper Toxicity in Mice
this study showed that L . plantarum CCFM8246 has protective function against acute copper toxicity in mice. It is the first time that the effects of lactobacilli on reducing intestinal copper absorption, decreasing tissue copper accumulation, ameliorating renal and hepatic oxidative stress, and alleviating hepatic damage are revealed. These interesting results demonstrated that L . plantarum CCFM8246 might have the potential to be a supplementary element to provide a novel dietary therapeutic strategy against acute copper toxicity.
Effect of dietary copper level on the gut microbiota and its correlation with serum inflammatory cytokines in Sprague-Dawley rats.
The results suggest that dietary copper level may have a direct impact on circulating inflammatory cytokines in the serum, perhaps inducing an inflammatory response by altering the microbial composition of rat feces. Serum TNF-α could be the chief responder to excessive copper exposure.
and again you could always test the theory that your actually low by what I mentioned, but keep those potential 5ar inhibitor properties in mind.