Considering TRT: Life-long commitment?

Therapeutic Efforts Pharmaceutical
#1

I’m considering taking the plunge into testosterone replacement. Here are the reasons:

  1. I can’t use Clomid or Tamoxifen. I used Clomid almost six years ago and developed floaters that never went away despite using it for only several days. I don’t want to risk developing more floaters. I’ve adapted to the ones I already have. I don’t want to take the chance, however, of making the situation worse. Vision is too important for me to play around with these drugs.

  2. I’ve already tried HCG but with no positive results (possibly with very negative results). I experimented with different doses but was unable to get total testosterone above 600 ng/dL. I topped out at 700 IU of CG 3x/week. I don’t want to go higher than that because of fear of Leydig cell desensitization. I combined CG with aromatase inhibitors (Aromasin, Arimidex), so I don’t think elevated E2 from CG use was a major problem.

Dr. Crisler has said that many of his patients need to have their T levels raised to supraphysiological levels in order for them to obtain any benefits from higher T. I suspect this is why he has a negative opinion of CG. For many men, they would need to take very high doses of CG to get their T levels above the top of the normal range, but this risks desensitization.

  1. Supplements are unlikely to elevate my testosterone levels considerably. My baseline total T level is about 300 ng/dL. I already have been able to roughly double that with CG but without any noticeable improvements. I highly doubt supplements will work any better.

  2. I’ve read that TRT is a “life-long commitment.” I don’t see how. Let’s say I go on TRT, supplemented with low dose CG to keep the Leydig cells from atrophy. If I don’t get good results, I simply discontinue TRT. If I do get good results, then I remain on TRT. If I decide at some point that I want to try supplements or some other approach, I stop TRT but at least have the solace of knowing I can go back on it in the future and get a decent response. This being so, why does anyone claim that TRT is a life-long commitment? Can using TRT permanently mess up the HPTA? Does anyone have reason to suspect this is the case? If so, please let me know, because this is the one thing that would make me reconsider my decision.

  3. I’ve lived like this for 7 years now. I’m tired of living this way. It’s exhausting. I don’t even care about the sexual problems at this point. If someone told me I’d be sexually dysfunctional for the rest of my life but that I could successfully treat all of the mental and physical problems (fatigue, depression, difficulty concentrating, low motivation, poor self-control, etc.), I’d be over-joyed. I’m not kidding. I don’t even like being around people anymore, so having better erections and a higher libido would mostly be pointless unless the other problems are also corrected.

I don’t want to waste any more time experimenting with “natural” stuff. I don’t even have the energy to live a highly disciplined lifestyle of staying on a regular sleep schedule, exercising regularly, eating only healthy foods, meditating, thinking positive, doing lots of research, and taking tons of pills every day. I’ve been struggling with this for years and cannot find the strength within myself to remain committed to these sorts of things. Some of you might not understand this. If that’s the case, then I suspect you have no idea what it’s like to have to deal with serious depression and fatigue. If I had the ability to be that highly disciplined, I would have been able to do it years ago. It’s not as though I haven’t tried. Willpower alone is not sufficient, not in my case. Willing myself to live an uber-healthy lifestyle under these conditions is as realistic as willing myself to have better erections.

If TRT works for me, then hopefully I will have the ability to get my life back in order. Once I’ve done that, then perhaps I can worry about searching around for some alternate, less permanent solution.

As for infertility, that’s not an issue for me. I’ve never wanted children. I would have gotten a vasectomy already but for the fact that 1) I don’t have sex anyway and 2) I don’t want to risk developing complications. If I ever change my mind about children (which is doubtful), I’ll adopt.

Does anyone have any feedback to offer? Specifically, does anyone have evidence that TRT can permanently mess up the HPTA?

-PSE

#2

propeciasideffects,

Personally I don’t blame you for thinking of going this route. I myself have been pondering the same thing. I also realize it may not be the best solution as we would be merely masking the problem. However, the effects associated with low T for a prolonged period of time seem worse. I plan on doing a lot more research before I make a decisioon to do it.

One of the reasons that it is said that taking TRT is a life long decision is, when you beging taking it your Pituitary gland and testicles realize there is an increase in T in your body. They then stop producing your own natural T and you may not be able to simply quit taking it and have your body resume it’s own production. So you need to continue relying on the TRT.

My recommendation is to search the muscle chat boards to try to get a better idea if taking TRT is a life long commitment.

This muscle board had an interesting conversation going about wether to take it or not.
forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-hea … 658-2.html

#3

Thanks. I’ll take a look at that website when I have a bit more time.

I have, of course, heard of bodybuilders who have messed up their HPTA from steroids. I’ve never heard of anyone with secondary hypogonadism messing up their HPTA from TRT. Keep in mind I’d be using small doses of CG to keep the testes working.

PSE

#4

PSE,

You know who I am…7+ years for me as well…We are going to get better soon…The battle is not over.

After we get better, a class action lawsuit should be started in the US and also in Canada… We must spread awareness…DO NOT GIVE UP!!!

#5

I don’t plan on giving up. I know TRT doesn’t address the root cause of whatever is wrong with me, but it might at least work to ameliorate my symptoms.

#6

hi,

long-term bullshit also going on here. ~7years off fin. however, ‘no need’ for TRT thus far (in terms of physical fitness, muscles, bones, energy…etc.)
I have read some of your previous blood tests and you had good T-levels.
What is your current testo-level? You said something like 300ng/dl but you had in between very high levels of testosterone and obviously did not benefit from it.
Am I wrong? Just a bit confused as whre your levels really are at the moment and if you did not have good values in between without treatment?
Which symptoms specifically do you consider to ‘treat’ with TRT?

Cheers and good luck!

#7

Boston: Thanks for the link.

This is a good thread. I’ve been thinking about this lately and wish I could get in for testing again. the last time my T was tested it was mid range and I’d been to the gym 5 days/week for over six months with gradual buildup.

Now I just moved and haven’t been able to work out seriously for two weeks and I notice a huge drop in muscle strength, endurance, elasticity.After the first week I had to J/O 3 times/day. Then it fell off a cliff. + I’ve got to piss constantly and it feels that I’ve lost control of the prostate. I’m thinking my T level has dropped seriously since then but don’t have a way to check :frowning:

I know it could be other things, but this production of T increasing during the period of exercise and then dropping when not being stimulated by exercise could explain it…

I’m going to do more research into TRT.

#8

Martin,

no problem. At this point in time I think of TRT as my last resort. If I exhausted all of my other options and I feel the lack of T is continuing to destroy me, I will seriously consider taking it. I’m not there yet and still have hope to try other things. I certainly do not blame any of the guys that have been suffering with low T for many years. I do believe that is far more dangerous to us than TRT.

I spent a good deal of time this weekend scouring the Muscle chat forums. A lot of these guys really know what they are talking about. There are more than a few doctors that frequent some of these boards as well. I am going to try a few different natural supplements that I have not tried before. Some of these were recommended on muscle forums. Some lower E, some are supposed to help lower SHBG and others are aphrodisiacs. I’ll post an update on my personal thread as to what the results are.

#9

I’ve been off of CG for a couple of months. I’m still waiting to receive the results from my last blood test.

Anytime I’ve tested off of meds, my T is low. At least it’s been that way for the last 2 years. Usually around 300 ng/dL (total T).

I hope to treat all of the non-sexual symptoms: low energy and motivation, fatigue, brain fog, apathy, depression, getting stressed out ridiculously easily, poor self-control, etc. If it helps with the sexual problems as well, that would be nice, but the sexual problems are pretty low on the totem pole right now (no pun intended). My biggest concern with the sexual problems is to get nocturnal erections going on a regular basis as I’m afraid of penile atrophy. Other than that, I could be impotent for the next 10 years and not really care. My life is such a mess that I’ll probably need 10 years to put it back together again anyway, and in the meantime I don’t want to be in a relationship.

JN has claimed that TRT has helped him with all of his non-sexual sides, so I’m hopeful.

-PSE

#10

I am Propecia free going on 3 years and I felt like crap up until I started TRT. I started roughly 10 months ago and wow what a difference. I have no more ED, brain fog, anxiety and tiredness. I take 100 mg of test cyp weekly and 10 mg of Tamoxifen daily. My total T went from 250 to a pretty consistent 810. I know I have to be on it for life but it is better than feeling like crap all of the time.

#11

Do you have to take Tamoxifen 10mg per day for the rest of your life? Is that safe?

#12

how long did you use HCG? I have read on mesomorphosis.com that HCG slowly takes effect. the reason? after so many years of low LH your testicles have atrophied it takes few weeks then slowly you have to decrease the hcg dose. if you go on meso…com there is very good articles by David Z.
There are other benefits of HCG that TRT can not provide. it also improve your Thyroid function as well.

#13

I was on HCG for about 10 months. I think I topped out at 600 IU three times per week. I started out lower than that, of course, and upped the dose gradually.

I plan on using small doses of CG along with testosterone replacement in order to prevent testicular atrophy.

I should be starting testosterone replacement soon. The vehicle I will be using is a liquid that is rubbed into the abdomen or thighs. A small amount is supposed to be rubbed into the penis. I have ordered this from Medicine Shoppe, a compounding pharmacy used by Dr. Shippen.

I still want to do more research before starting TRT. My biggest concern is that testosterone replacement could screw up the HPTA long-term. I have not heard of this happening, but I want to do more reading in order to be certain.

#14

does it mean , your (and ours too) testicles are no more 100% functional?

#15

c

#16

did you try HCG? if not yet give it a try and see what happens? It is more natural.

#17

hey Jeff

interesting form of TRT

100 mg test is regular, but the tamoxifen is interesting… this is normally used post cycle after a bodybuilding cycle

apart from keeping your estradiol low, does it give you full balls like hcg?

never read about this type of trt anywhere

#18

Please provide more information on your experience with propecia via member stories/bloods sections as not many have been able to overcome these sides via TRT.

#19

He did:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 0196#20196

#20

Where can I get HCG? Do I have to order online? Im in canada, and I read somewhere it’s not available here