just add the annoying people your block list. 
don’t worry, many of us are watching and reading with interest.
i gave up a long time ago…but time after time…i realize some people here do listen and care for it…so keep it going , cause i am one of them
Indeed please keep posting about your experiences. For me after 1,5 year of waiting and hoping my situation would change, I want to begin with trying some experiments. How did you actually got your medicins like clomid, t4 and stuff? Dont you need prescriptions for those kind of medicins?
Updates?
Could you use aromasion instead of chlomid? That would be less complex.
chlomid effects things like shbg and as you know it acts as estrogen in some cells and as a estrogen blocker in other cells.
So it kind of complicates the picture. If you wana increase T and decrease E aromasin should do the job. You will need to verify with a blood test as for some people it increase E by creating extra T.
Hi MrMojo
I just read about your story viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4207&p=27800&hilit=acupuncture#p27800
looks like you got into trouble after your vasectomy (many males become hypogonadal after vasectomy) and your symptoms were just like us before going on TRT ie Estrogen dominance.
1- Do you think your problems were just like us?
2- Did your TRT fixe you 100%
3- Did Acupuncture help you pre and post finasteride?
Too bad he bailed on his thread but Clomid, when it works only works for so long, and not at all for anyone over 40. Some people don’t tolerate it well at all, I was one, it made me extremely emotional and depressed even at small dosage and gave me no positive results. Its all about the DHT people. If your receptors are deadened you have to compensate.
Has anyone tried out this regime? I do feel my metabolism has slowed down. Pre-fin I was lean, skin was tight…now I have put on weight (no changes to my diet or exercise).
If one was to try this regime, what would be the specific products recommended? i.e. which brand of T3? dosage? how often would you take it?
Thanks,
Jamie
I believe that it did. My acupuncturist did a “soft reset” of my endocrine system. I could feel it working after the second treatment. Treatment details:
We did three treatments in Sept of 2010. The core acupuncture treatment included: ear points Point Zero and Endocrine. Body points Bladder 23 and 52 and GV-4. Other points added to this core treatment included: KI-3, BL-62, GB-37, ST-36, GV-14. We also used the TDP lamp with the liquid moxa on the kidney area on the low back. We even used the big smokey moxa once without the lamp.
thanks for the update but I wonder why your post is in this thread?It is scary how simple Vasectomy made you impotent. I am surprised how Science is still far from understanding human body.
on more question MrMojo
how you were diagnosed primary hypoganadism? were your LH and FSH out of range high? I am interested in knowing how primary diagnosis was made?
My testosterone was very low, estradiol high and I had all the classic symptoms to the nth degree. I was quite disabled physically and mentally at that point.
My initial doctors botched the blood tests; by the time I was properly tested for LH and FSH I was already on TRT. Naturally at that point LH and FSH were almost nonexistent.
My first test was 290 total T, estradiol was not tested and Free T wasn’t specified. (My primary care physician ordered the tests and he didn’t know squat about what to order and how to properly interpret the results.) A second test less than two weeks later had Total T at 379, Free T at 89 and estradiol at 139. FSH was 16.4 which is in the normal range, but not optimal; LH was not tested. With my Free T/estradiol ratio I was running on empty.
I agree with Eugene Shippen and other doctors who think that testing for LH and FSH and properly interpreting the results is dicey at best. If you want to determine whether it is primary or secondary hypogonadism simply prescribe chorionic gonadotropin to the patient. If he responds favorably to the treatment then it is secondary hypogonadism. If not, it is primary.
I think FSH 16 is too high maybe out of renge. do you have range? I saw a true primary hypogonadism. his FSH and LH were too high. I think like 25 and 37 and his father wrote to me every dr is telling LH and FSH are too high but on the same time his testicles were too small since his childhood.
I wish you had clear diagnosis. So you are telling after applying TRT your estrogen rose too high? if yes, how did you bring it down? and why did you use Fin? since with very high Estrogen you should not bee loosing hair.
Please clarify these.
how did you check your FSH if you were on TRT?did you stop TRT and then check FSH? And also did it happen before using Fin/SP? or after using Fin/SP?
when did you have high Estrogen? I mean before starting TRT (when you first diagnosed hypogonadal after vasectomy) or after starting TRT? or after starting Fin/SP?
I am very curious to know exactly when your Estrogen rose. Was it vasectomy which caused damage to your testes and they produced nothing but Estrogen or was it your TRT or was it Fin/SP use?
My first FSH test was done before I began TRT. 16 is within the range but it is at the high end of the range. It would have to be much higher if I had secondary hypgonadism. Subsequent FSH and LH tests were done after I began. Since I was taking relatively high doses of testosterone both FSH and LH were <.5, which is to be expected when doing TRT.
My estradiol level of 139 was measured before I began TRT. It was the second blood draw done before TRT; the first test did not measure estradiol, FSH or LH because my primary care physician does not know how to properly test hormone levels.
After I began TRT my estradiol remained high because I convert testosterone to estradiol. Some men convert and some men do not, or do not convert very much.
I take generic Arimidex to mitigate the aromatization process. I take .25 or .5 mg daily. (I use a razor blade to divide the tiny pills.)
When I switched to injecting testosterone cypionate in late August I tried going without the Arimidex to see if the different supplementation method would alter the aromatization. The physician who is monitoring my current treatment is also using testosterone cypionate and he does not convert. We did a blood test and sure enough, my estradiol was 111. When I resumed taking Arimidex it went down to 28; the ideal range is between 20-30.
I took Finasteride and later combined it with Saw Palmetto because of concerns about my high DHT level caused by the TRT. Ironically, my hair was thinning prior to my hypogonadism diagnosis. An Ayurevedic physician told me that my high “pita” was due to my diet, high coffee consumption and lifestyle factors and that I was “burning the hair right off of my head.” I quit coffee for 1.5 years and made other significant lifestyle changes. (When I resumed drinking coffee I consumed only a fraction of what I did previously.) My hair loss stopped and it has remained the same for over six years. There has even been regrowth of hair. (I didn’t see the Ayurvedic doc about my hair; the subject came up during our initial consultation. I was having other health issues that concerned me.)
One other thing: I have been on high doses of testosterone for over six years. As I mentioned my DHT has been high the entire time. But my prostate is physically “perfect” according to my PCP. It was confirmed by an abdominal ultrasound done when I developed liver dysfunction caused by five rounds of the antibiotic Augmentin prescribed for a stubborn sinus infection. My PSA has consistently been < 1 except for an anomalous result caused by having sex immediately prior to the blood draw. The most recent PSA test done on 8/31/12 was 0.74.
So much for the need to lower DHT to prevent prostate problems…
I think it is typo you mean a high FSH indicates primary (testicular failure) not secondary.In case of secondary (Pitutary problem) LH/FSH go too low. Usually after vasectomy there are anti bodies which attack testicles and thus cause high FSH/LH. brain tries to awaken testicles to produce more sperms/Testosterone. The weird thing is your Estradiol was high too during that period before starting TRT. I don’t know why? Did your Dr had any explaination for high Estradiol? what is your own opinion?
how long did you stay on TRT before starting Fin/SP? Do you think TRT fixed all of your issues 100%?.
could you describe your main issues before and after starting TRT
brain fog before TRT (0 - 10) how much improved after TRT (0 - 10)
fatigue before TRT(0 - 10) how much improved after TRT (0 - 10)
appetite before TRT( 0 - 10) how much improved after TRT (0 - 10)
impotanenc before TRT (0 - 10) how much improved after TRT (0 - 10)
dry eyes before TRT(0 - 10) how much improved after TRT (0 - 10)
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Yes, that is a typo. Thanks for catching it.
None of my doctors have even mentioned it much less offered a possible reason for it. I don’t have any idea why it was so high.
Unfortunately, I didn’t start keeping detailed records until February 2007. Without doing a lot of digging in my files, I began TRT around September 2006. Here is the Finasteride/Saw Palmetto info;
FINASTERIDE/SAW PALMETTO TIME-LINE 1/29/07-8/28/20
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1/29/07 Began taking Finasteride 1.25mg/day.
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6/2/08 Increased to 2.5mg/day.
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2/19/10 Increased to 5mg/day.
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4/13/10 Stopped all oral supplements due to liver dysfunction. Continued topical Testosterone and oral DHEA.
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4/22/10 Resumed some oral supplements and Finasteride 5mg/day.
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5/5/10 Began taking Saw Palmetto 320mg/day.
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6/26/10 Blood test.
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7/25/10 Stopped Finasteride.
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9/1/10 Blood test.
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8/28/10 Stopped Saw Palmetto.
If you are referring to the hypogonadism, the answer is an unqualified yes.
I had most, if not all of the usual symptoms of hypogonadism and I had them bad. In addition, over the course of 1-2 years I would present with excruciating intractable pain in different parts of my body that could not be diagnosed via imaging. In a couple of instances even strong injected narcotics did not adequately address the pain. The pain would eventually resolve on its own. When my low-back pain was the worst I was essentially bed-ridden and I needed a walker to make my way to the bathroom. The brain fog was so bad my wife began accompanying me to appointments because I could not follow a conversation. Writing a simple one paragraph e-mail message would take a half-hour to accomplish.
10/0
10/0
I don’t recall this being an issue… I did gain a fair amount of weight even though I eat a very healthy diet. After I began TRT I did the Sonoma Diet for 14 months and lost over 50 pounds and 10 inches of my waist. Prior to TRT no diet that I tried worked for me. I stopped the diet over three years ago and I have maintained a healthy weight. I currently wear the same size pants that I did in high school: 32 waist. (Due to extreme muscle-wasting I regained some weight after the diet because I did core-strengthening and other exercises to improve my muscle tone. My wife tells me that I looked like a starved concentration camp survivor at the end of my diet.)
10/0. Libido was non-existent for a couple of months before I began treatment.
I don’t remember this being a problem.
It took about a year for all my symptoms to be resolved. The overly-conservative treatment in the beginning and the aromatization issue delayed resolution of some symptoms, while others take some time to resolve once the hormones are balanced. My DHEA and Vitamin D were also very low; I noticed significant improvement when those were increased to optimum levels. In fact, the TRT didn’t have very much effect until my DHEA level was around 450. The compounding pharmacist who at the time was helping to direct my treatment told me that DHEA helps facilitate the utilization of testosterone.
The longest-lasting symptom is low-back pain caused by instability of my sacroiliac joint. The instability is caused by low testosterone which softens the ligaments, preventing them from providing adequate support. The back pain did not resolve until I had four prolotherapy treatments between 9/9/08 and 5/26/09. The symptoms returned after I began experiencing PFS and transdermal testosterone was no longer effective, probably due to the fact that the androgen receptors in my skin were exhausted.
Since 8/31/12 I have had two Platelet Rich Plasma prolotherapy treatments, a much more powerful version of the prolotherapy. I wouldn’t be surprised if I have another 2-3 prolo treatments this year. Based on what I experienced previously the resolution of the ligament problem requires an adequate testosterone level for up to a year combined with the prolo. The only option to prolo is an SI fusion, which is really no option at all. The SI joint is designed to move; fusing one side (my left side has resolved while my right side is still affected…) simply sets you up for more serious problems sooner or later… probably sooner.
I have also needed regular treatment by an osteopath since my SI joint goes out on an almost daily basis. Fortunately, my wife is a health care professional with training in muscle energy and other manipulation techniques. My osteopath has trained her so she can now do the adjustments at home when I need it. If it wasn’t for my wife I would literally be in a world of hurt. Her knowledge and medical connections have been instrumental in my being able to obtain good treatment. And even then I had to work my way through a half-dozen incompetent and semi-incompetent health care providers to get the help I needed. I shudder to think what an average patient must face who does not have our knowledge, training, connections and financial resources.
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MrMojo
you put mostly 10/0 you mean 0 before TRT and 10 after TRT?
could you provide range for your Estradiol? I don’t see unit or range.
Also what about thyroid? usually low thyroid and hypoganadism go hand in hand.
I am surprised about your Testosterone therapy though. Most primary hypogonadism are fixed by simple Testosterone replacement. I have talked to many doctors here in Ottawa and they all told my they give simply T injection, nothing else and all patients are doing well.
TRT stands for Testosterone Replacement Therapy, I assume? Is that something you do forever?
you put mostly 10/0 you mean 0 before TRT and 10 after TRT?
I interpreted 10 as indicating “a lot” and 0 " as “none.” So 10 is fully impotent and 0 is no impotence.
could you provide range for your Estradiol? I don’t see unit or range.
Estradiol is measured as pg/mL at the lab I use. As far as I am concerned the ranges listed by labs are meaningless. All they show is the range of test results of its patients, nothing more. What is optimal for one man may not be optimal for another. Unfortunately, far too many doctors “treat to the test” instead of treating the symptoms. I have heard of doctors refusing to treat patients who have all the classic symptoms of hypogonadism but who fall within the “normal range.”
One fellow I was in contact with had this experience with an andrologist in New York City. (An andrologist is an endocrinologist who has had additional training in diagnosing and treating male hormonal dysfunction.) He wouldn’t treat him because his total testosterone was something like 304, which is just four points above the usual cut-off point for the normal range. (And total testosterone is a relatively meaningless number anyway. The more important values are free or bio-available testosterone and estradiol.) In my case my symptoms are not relieved until my total testosterone is around 1300, free T is in the 50-60 range and estradiol is around 25. Those testosterone values are considered to be “hyper-therapeutic” by many doctors and most wouldn’t allow patients to attain such levels.
Fortunately, my doctor understands that testosterone values above the “normal range” is within the normal range for some men. If we tested the hormones for all men at say 20 years years old it would be a big help in treating those men when they develop hypogonadism later and life because there would be a record of a patient’s unique hormonal values at their peak.
Also what about thyroid? usually low thyroid and hypoganadism go hand in hand.
I don’t think that hypothyroidism and hypogonadism are necessarily related. From what I have read it could be merely coincidental since there is a relatively high prevalence of hypothyroidism. At any rate, I was treated for Wilson’s Temperature Syndrome, which is similar to but different than classic hypothyroidism. Some of the symptoms are different and the treatment protocol is not the same. Info about Wilson’s is available on the Internet.
I am surprised about your Testosterone therapy though. Most primary hypogonadism are fixed by simple Testosterone replacement. I have talked to many doctors here in Ottawa and they all told my they give simply T injection, nothing else and all patients are doing well.
TRT can be relatively easy to treat or it can be more complex depending on the individual. Hormone replacement therapy does not lend it self to the typical “one size fits most” way of practicing medicine. It’s part science, part art. I have seen estimates that as many as 15 million American males have hypogonadism and less than 5% are receiving adequate treatment. If it was relatively easy to diagnose and treat I would expect to see much better statistics.
To answer Cap’s question: TRT is the abbreviation for Testosterone Replacement Therapy. And yes, it is typically something that must be done for the rest of a patient’s life.
thanks MrMojo
so what is your conclusion about hypogonadism caused by vasectomy and caused by Fin/SP? Do you think both cases can be fixed the same way by simply adjusting different hormones? OR you think vasectomy induced hypogonadim is easy to fix but Fin/SP induced hypogonadism is not simply matter of fixing the hormones?
what is your current protocol?