I agree but that is up to individuals. People see a light, any light and flock toward it extrapilating whatever they want from information Awor has provided thus far is wrong but it won’t stop people from doing in none the less. People need to keep updated and wait till more information is available and not try to deseminate conclusions from the little we know thus far.
Any idea when this first study is going to be published? All the data collection and analysis is done right? Has it at least been submitted for publication?
Dengree - I have not received that herb in the mail yet…
Re my recovery. Its like my adrogens are pumping in my body again from head to toe. I noticed the area behind my testicles (the prostate) is now raised (ie has no longer shrunk). I constantly think about sex like an alpha male should. Im so relaxed and confident now - I can tell socially people sense this.
Im supper lean ie metabolism/body/weight is exactly the same to when I took the drug 7 years ago. My refractionary time between orgasims is back to my 19 year old levels -ie half n hour - INSANE
Guys - I was an old school pfs sufferer for years when the old yahoo website was up in running. Ive had every pfs symptom. What was scary was that I was so young and didnt know what was happening to me.
Coming through this at such a young age has defiantly built character in me, and I plan to go far in life and business. Ill keep you guys posted.
In my opinion this problem is somehow androgen/prostate/thryoid related ie multiple problems but all liked.
Chow
What I also notice is that my whole body is warm/puts out heat (a sign my androgens are working)
This is the problem with IHP’s thread, solonjk’s thread, and braziliandude’s thread, and JN’s thread.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6115&p=54025&hilit=ihp#p54025
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6161
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5076
viewtopic.php?t=5976
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2261&start=620
These threads grow like wildfire and later turn out to be incorrect or bogus, many even get worse by following their advice. JN’s changed his opinion and approach more times than I can count. IHP took hepatoxic antifungals after he took hormonal treatments. Xhorn, I believe you have first hand experience with antibiotic damage from solonjk’s approach. Braziliandude was on the forum less than a day after he first tried his approach encouraging others to follow him, now he won’t even update his progress on his thread.
Martim how many times do i have to say??? everybody was SOOOO harsh on my thread, that later one day i said, I WILL NOT post anything here anymore, for the ones who are interested please pm me, that was the case, i still doing autohemotherapy yes sir, and i am felling better, and my doctor and i keep searching my body, we keep finding all kinds of wrong stuff in it, i just had a MRI done…and they found a cist under my prostate = (( and she cant tell me exactly what its…so im probably going to have another MRI done…and my ultrasond showed my prostate with 34 cm3;;;WHICH IS SO SWOLLEN. i dont know what to say…my pathogen test couldnt be performed because my prostate wouldnt produce any fluid. and martim if you feel like sharing information then get in touch with me…i have skype msn yahoo and you can always pm me, im all about helping other, however in this forum this is no easy task.
Your last posts did not indicate that you would discontinue posting. As I stated in the thread - and you agreed with me - you claimed success and encouraged others to try the treatment before really evaluating it.
Please continue to update your thread with fact-based information. The majority of the reason you were attacked in the thread was for your initial over-enthusiasm for an untested therapy. Periodically updating the thread with facts about the treatment and how you are doing is beneficial for the whole community.
Cgj1, if your 100% recovered why would you want to order the herbs though. After this don’t you want to refrain from putting anything in your body?
Also, I remember PMing you a few months back and you said you were 70-80%. Can you clarify how you progressed from 70-80% to 100%? Slow and gradual? Quick? Were you just cycling T3?
I have my thyroid tested and everything is within range, so I don’t know if I will be able to (or even if I should) try thyroid medication.
We need to keep this thread on topic, post hocus pocus else where…
Yes, I said I wouldnt post in this thread anymore, but someone has to react to MartinM last posts, because as a moderator his words have a different weight. I dont disagree at all with most of the content but even fully support the same view.
Martinm, I agree with what you stated there but I think that as a mod you should be concerned that everybody is held to the same reasonable standards that you are defining above. Im gonna repeat myself because it doesnt seem youve been paying attention to what Ive pointed out earlyer :
Please realize that AWOR has been repeatedly doing the exact same stuff you are scolding people for in these posts :
- Encouraging ppl (directly or indirectly, by PM or trough zealous convinced “disciples”) to pursue potentially DANGEROUS therapies based on opinions (not FACTs) : In that procain thread for instance he did pretty much what you are blaming braziliandude for having done, leading people to beleive that this compound should help people get better by “demethylating their DNA” and improperly interpreting his own results with this coumpound in the light of this unproven theory. Which is NOT a fact but an OPINION, and is most likely WRONG viewtopic.php?p=53780#p53780 In fact the dangers of autohemotherapy are less established than the dangers of procain.
Blind followers then repeat awor’s opinions presenting them as a FACT on the sole basis of uncritical FAITH and thus allow themselves to give misleading and potentially dangerous advices on this groundless basis. Examples here viewtopic.php?p=51347#p51347
- He’s been REPEATEDLY spreading the word around than any success with “antibiotics or antifungals” (not precizing any specific compounds) would have happened because of alleged epigenetics-effecting HDACi properties (which i proved to be fallacious), and telling people they could interchangeably take these compounds or GHB (other potentially dangerous drug, more easily obtained from criminal sources) for the same alleged epigenetics-modulating benefits.
Please DO check these links again
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=335&p=48002&hilit=+antifungal%2A#p48002
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=335&p=53833&hilit=+antifungal%2A#p53833
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5282&p=53866&hilit=+antifungal%2A#p53866
viewtopic.php?p=53715#p53715 : this one is another example of misled AND misleading “Awor said this so it must be true” statement.
The mass of uncritical awor followers then proceed to accuse of TROLLING anybody daring to scrutinize his less-than-solid statements with a critical eye, then a MOD proceeds to reinforce that messed up situation by scolding people for the very exact same faults that the admins keeps commiting with a free pass…
There actually is a long history of approximative generalizations quickly passed as facts by the admins, without any scrutiny from the same people that will bash people for similar or even lesser offenses in the forum. A good example of a few, by awor, pointed out by Xhornog there viewtopic.php?p=51275#p51275. If you care to ask I can easily find similar less-than-faultless statements by mew (although he IS more careful than awor in picking his words).
If anything the admins should be held to a HIGHER standard than other “regular” posters, and the minimum to expect from them is the same level of scientific scrutiny that they demand from us. ESPECIALLY ON THIS VERY THREAD which is kept public (as opposed to the “theories” section - where members sometimes let themselves loose and get bashed for it) and the very first one under the " !!! NEW MEMBERS - START HERE " banner.
I am sadly expecting to be bashed for this crime of lese-majesty, and it’s really, deeply, fucked up.
BTW please dont tell me I’m “attacking” the study by pointing out awor’s public displays of scientific sloppiness. Awor is not the one conducting the study although he is the instigator (and I AM grateful for that). The study I fully trust is conducted by a competent team of scientists and nothing Ive said casts any doubt on the rigor of its operation nor the validity of the results. I only hope people will stop putting every single gram of their hope and total uncritical faith in anything awor says or does. That study is only ONE study investigating a very specific element with a very specific underlying theory. There is no doubt it will be useful but there is no evidence whatsoever that it should represent the one and only angle that we should be focusing on.
If you feel Awor isn’t answering contact him directly via PM. I’m not Awor however I can understand why he may not be completely forthcoming on a public forum about proprietary data in an unpublished study.
Regarding my statement about IHP, hepatoxic drugs, and hormonal treatments:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6115
IHP took diflucan, lufenuron, and phellostatin, proviron, androhard, armidex, arromasin, and femara in addition to Nystatin. Diflucan specifically is hepatoxic and IHP took hormonal treatments hence the reasons for my statements. Whether or not they are relevant is a matter of opinion - that he took them and the antifungal is hepatoxic is a matter of fact. I did not imply that hormonal treatments are safer than using antifungals, I merely stated a fact that IHP took antifungals - and some were hepatoxic - after taking hormonal treatments.
Regarding Xhorn, the point is moot as you experienced severe antibiotic side effects as a result of following solonjk’s urging to go to Greece.
And the final point:
I read your links. I see a major difference in Awor’s and braziliandude’s approaches. Specifically you attack Awor for encouraging people to IV procain. Here’s a quote from his thread - no emphasis added:
And here’s a quote from braziliandude’s thread - no emphasis added:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5976
See the difference?
I found further examples where the links you quoted did not hold up to your last message however I’m not going to further this discussion - it’s a waste of time. The bottom line is per your last posts we agree. Let’s stop discussing emotionally based things and focus on fact-based theories/research. This site requires a massive amount of upkeep. I don’t know how Mew does it all. If you disagree with a specific point Awor makes create critical commentary and PM him if he doesn’t respond. There’s a lot of trolling taking place from all angles.
The easiest way to kill a troll is to: 1) not become a troll yourself, and 2) not to feed a troll.
i know we are all frustrated but people need to stop jamming this thread up with irrelevant bickering and repetitive questions. If you want to discuss the validity of other theories this is not the thread to do it.
Also people are asking awor the same questions over and over. When awor has something to report, you can be sure he will let us know. Constantly harassing him is not going to bring the study forward any faster.
Venceremos is not asking for study info. He is challenging a broad (and apparently false) statement that all antifungals and antibiotics are HDACIs made by someone repeating Awor’s information and re-asserted multiple times by Awor.
Totally disingenuous. If you want to claim that the cure for PFS is to take hormones, quit them, and wait a year for them to kick in…well, you just said that.
I was going to let it all go, but since you persist: I didn’t go to Kos solely based on Solonjk’s transparently hysterical reaction. I went because I had pain in my testicle/prostate area and suspected some type of prostatitis. I researched around where I could get treatment for it since no conventional U.S. urologist would acknowledge or treat the symptom. I considered centers in Arizona, Canada, New York, San Francisco, Italy and China. I decided on the technique practiced in Kos. I now no longer have that pain. Yes, the FQs are no joke; I’ve expressed my feelings on this experience elsewhere. Including my thinking that this was a sledgehammer treatment, and that the source of pathogens is probably deeper, probably more a matter of the “host” so to speak.
An ironic statement, to say the least. 
I guess anyone who questions anyone is a troll, then. I have no personal animus towards Awor. I’m glad he’s spearheaded a scientific study on a molecular level. But I’ve expressed my concern that one of our most prominent gatekeepers to scientific inquiry and the media is making some questionable assertions. Maybe all the sources dug up on antifungals/antibiotics not being HDACIs are false? I don’t know. But if so, I’d like to hear Awor’s response, I’d like to review his citations. The lack of response to Venceremos’ pile of research to the contrary concerns me. I’m increasingly afraid that no matter what the objective (and useful) scientific finding is, the conclusion will be engineered to fit the original theory. This happens all the time in science: the abstract does not match the data generated by the study. This could set us back tremendously – so now is the time to clear up any misconceptions.
You had a forum member that has been puppeting Awor’s statements and extrapolating conclusions from unpublished work on multiple threads post a scientific paper on HDACS. Only Tim and Venceremos questioned where in that supplied paper it was stated that Nystatin was an HDACI. In fact, Venceremos pointed out that the paper proved OTHERWISE!
Don’t you see how foolishly repeating something someone says as truth is dangerous? Here, we have two instances where people do not want to give credit to the obvious action of certain agents.
- When IHP uses antifungals successfully it must be due to hormones that everyone on this forum has used unsuccessfully.
- Antifungals and antibiotics do EVERYTHING but their obvious action
[Size=4](I suppose the antibiotics I used which ended my testicle pain were doing something other than what antibiotics do? Not to mention the guys experiencing success with Flagyl. Or the people who PM me all the time afraid of publicly reporting their gains with Nystatin or Baking Soda or biofilm busters).[b] [/size]
If people had quality sources proving that the main mode of action of the above agents was something other than their purported one, it would be acceptable. Where are these sources? It’s only fair to ask for this standard of proof in ALL discussions. Seems to me, that some people have put ALL their hope in one, single study, and are willing to accept a layperson as a complete authority figure without any scrutiny for fear we might blow our one chance. Don’t bet everything on any one study, any one person, any one doctor, folks.[/b]
While you’re waiting for the results of this one study, if you live near France, contact Blase, JG or Venceremos and book an appointment with a medical team there who is actively studying PFS patients and finding pudendal neuropathy (inflammation/compression of the tissue surrounding branches of the pudendal nerve - some responsible for erections, some for sensitivity. Some have diffuse inflammation, some focal). This could be a smoking gun in your medical and legal case.
Yep totally disingenuous sentence. Again as a mod I think you ought to try harder to be more accurate and not mislead ppl.
Lufenuron = NOT hepatotoxic. AT ALL. NEVER gets metabolized by the liver.
“Phellostatin”=natural OTC phellodendron extract, basically a berberine supp like oregon grape root etc. NOT a “hepatotoxic antifungal”
Diflucan=fluconazole=Have you read what Ive stated in my post above??
"proviron, androhard, arimidex,aromasin,femara" he didnt take “in addition to nystatin” but A YEAR BEFORE.
I knew you were gonna point out some of the precautions awor took when reporting his procain experiment for example. You fail to see that I said “directly or indirectly, through zealous disciples”, and the procain thing fell into the “indirectly” category. His posts, PERSONAL MESSAGES about antifungals, antibiotics and GHB being HDACi thus interesting for us because of epigenetics effecting properties (fallacious in the case of abx/af, likely wrong in the case of GHB) fall in the “directly” category.
But in effect the end result is the same, even much stronger than what braziliandude’s posting could ever achieve : see again the quote from second amendment advising Keepup to try procain because awor tried it and it could be good. How can you hold to the same standards a young newbie kid that can barely write proper english and always posts overexcited ramblings without ever scientific prententions and AWOR than so many people here see as the ultimate PFS messiah that has some kind of mystic PFS knowledge than none of us mere mortals have access to. Give me a break, try to accept your shortcomings for a second instead of relying ONCE AGAIN on dishonest rethoric.
Please tell me your definition of “trolling” and WHO this accusation is directed at and WHY. You can do it on another thread not to derail this one further but I cant let this unadressed. You’re a MOD after all.
Guys guys, please calm down.
There is no need to come up with complicated arguments to trash the insensitivity theory. There is a much simpler one.
If we were insensitive to androgen, no one around here would have both low T and low E2. Think about it. If our body was insensitive to androgens, then out pituitary gland would be insensitive to androgens too. Therefore, we would all have high T. But this is not the case. Period. End of the story.
I asked awor for his opinion on this several times, but he never addressed this point.
Just for the record, nothing Ive posted here was in the intention to “trash the insensitivity theory”, although this theory doesnt make much sense for my own case and many others I know of, for many obvious reasons. I cannot discount that it could be a fact for some ppl here, and I dont beleive that “PFS” has necessarly a single common etiology for everybody here (besides finasteride/5AR inhibition itself) that we should be obsessively chasing. The AR/epigenetics studies are, again, nothing but great endeavours, but they DEFINITELY should not represent the end of all theorizing/research of other angles to attack “PFS” from.
Vinceromos, I agree.
Hope the study distinguishes between those that crash straight away and those that crash after cessation of the drug.
I dont know if you can say the PFS problem can be explained by one single cause per Awor, although I hope it can (for everybody’s sake)
Venceremos,
First of all, sorry for my delay. I was on a business trip all week and had little time to devote to the forum.
Now HDAC inhibitors fall into five known categories:
- hydroxamic acids
- cyclic tetrapeptides
- benzamides,
- aliphatic acid compounds
- benzamides,
Each one of these substances has either antibiotic and/or antifungal properties. At the same time, these antibiotic substances are all inhibitors of various classes of the deacetylase enzyme. Just as an example:
I’m not going to spoon feed you all the quotes, do the googling yourself (combine the above terms with the keywords “antibiotics antifungals”). You will find similar statements about the other above listed substance classes as well. And yes, there are antibiotics and/or antifungals out there that don’t have documented HDACi properties. Missing research for certain substances doesn’t prove anything though, as we all know in the context of our own problem. As stated above, new HDAC inhibitors are being discovered at a “rapid pace”. Given the above list, it seems that HDACi substances very often also have antibiotic and antifungal properties.
Antibiotics have also been shown to cause persistent changes in gene expression:
Possible epigentic changes can include methylation and acetylation (both often go hand in hand).
Further, antibiotics have been shown to have an effect on RNA interference (whereby silencing the expression of certain genes), which results in altered level of gene products (proteins). Possible downstream events include changes in chromatin acetylation and epigenetic events:
The main point about antibiotics and antifungals is this: They do a lot more than just simply kill bacteria or fungus. These substances work by substantially influencing the gene expression of various target genes and inhibit various enzymes, including HDAC’s, as stated above. Also, the up or downregulation of certain genes can by itself induce acetylation or deacetylation of downstream genes.
My basic message to you is the following: Just because you take an antibiotic and it has a positive effect does not prove that the root cause of our problem is an infection of whatever type. Things are more complicated than that. Having said that, you are of course free to believe anything you want, if it makes you happy.
On a personal note now: I don’t understand why you are coming to this thread making such a big fuss about HDAC’s. Yes, they may be playing a role - and yes, we still need to prove that role, but HDAC’s are not the central question under investigation right now.
What is very aparent to me, and probably also many other readers of this thread, is that your main objective seems to be to discredit me and the scientific work which I helped initiate. Your complete misrepresentation of what I said about Procaine is further proof of this. I was well aware of the dangers of the therapy, as documented by one of the first statements I made in my demethylation thread:
Many people have pm’d me while I was risking my own health and life in an attempt to find a “cure” with procaine. I have always warned them about the potential dangers and suggested that they hold off until it is clearer if it helped me or not. Your statement that I was misleading people down a dangerous path is simply wrong.
What your motivation is behind your efforts to discredit me currently escapes my mind. In any case, what you are pulling off here is not really a sign of good character. Your behavior and defamatory statements lately are actually way out of line. If you have a problem with me, please have the courage or at least courtesy to just write me a pm. I will be completely open to have a civil discussion with you if you are capable of that. But if you can’t hold back with your urge to continue with your Awor bashing, please go and do it in another thread and not in the main research thread of this site.
Last, I am not contributing my time and money to help get research going for my personal pleasure. Spent time is taken away from family, personal time and business. If you feel that you are better qualified to take over my part, can do a better job, or more effectively deliver results - be my guest. The day will come, in the not too distant future, where this ball will start rolling by itself. Believe me, I am very much looking forward to that day, knowing that we can soon - in confidence - take the back seat.
We have reached the point now where I have said everything there is to say about the research, the results and publication (which are in the works and will be published this year). Currently, the next wave of research is being prepared. There will be an announcement regarding the new research and a milestone development at the organizational level in the near future. Please be patient until then, and I will not post in this thread anymore until we have some substantial news (as it seems to cause more irritation than clarification).
To all others, thanks for your continued support of OUR common cause and effort to get us out of this mess with the help of scientific means.
[1] faculty.biu.ac.il/~unger/HDAC/MillerTA.pdf
[2] ijabpt.com/pdf/7081-Agarwal%5B1%5D%5B2%5D.pdf
[3] Goto K, Yabe K, Suzuki T, Takasuna K, Jindo T, Manabe S. Gene expression
[4] hdac.org/features/article.php?p_articleNumber=586
nature.com/nbt/journal/v26/n8/full/nbt.1481.html
Awor
I cannot beleive what I just read
What you said in the mutiple posts I quoted, and also by PM to some ppl was that “[Size=4]JUST ABOUT ALL ANTIBIOTICS AND ANTIFUNGALS HAVE HDACI PROPERTIES[/size]” (and you were obviously referring in particular to nystatin which I PROVED does NOT have any HDACi property.)
What you spent much effort showing in the above post is that [Size=4]all HDACi have antibiotic or antifungal properties[/size], which I NEVER DENIED and has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about AT ALL.
If you are THAT confused to be thinking that this is equivalent to your prior abusive statement then you are DEFINITELY not qualified to be talking about science AT ALL, PERIOD. Its alike saying that since all apples are fruits then it’s safe to say that most likely all fruits are apples. I seriously didnt expect your answer to be that weak. I actually had some faith remaining in you and was expecting you to come back and recognize your, after all, human mistakes. But you come back with some of the most blatently illogical argumentation I’ve ever seen from someone with scientific pretentions. This means that your intellectual weakness or dishonesty is apparently much worse than what I thought. And I am seriously now doubting that any study or theory or whatever coming for you can have any possible value at all.
About the antifungal activity of HDACi you dont need to “spoonfeed” me anything as I already made the observation myself viewtopic.php?p=53666#p53666
About the “epigenetics effect of antibiotics” which you are GENERALIZING from examples of specific classes of abx, I dont even know where to begin… I know IN DEPTH the multiple mechanism of action/damage of quinolones and for very good reason. You are so confused and illogical it’s not even funny anymore. Basically and to keep it simple the primary target/mode of action of these abx have always been bacterial DNA or RNA by design so it comes as no surprise that they have epigenetics effect. It is however NOT the case of all abx AT ALL and abusive for you to again “reverse-generalize” from a couple of cases to “just about all antibiotics”. I PROVED that the archetypal antibiotics that are penicillin, gentamicin and streptomycin are NOT HDACI. Again what you said is “just about all of abx or af are HDACi”. In the same way because antifungal Trichostatin A primary mode of action is HDAC inhibition dose not mean that all antifungals present this property. Again I PROVED that azoles (a large class of common antifungals) and nystatin are NOT HDACi. You now want to say that “they probably have epigenetics-effecting properties” from some more specific cases without any actual solid proof and it isnt anyway equivalent to what you have been repeating in posts and by PM in this forum.
I didnt need you to come telling me that drugs have many other effects that their primary indication, some of them unknown, I have been aware of that for a very long time, and never discounted the possibility of beneficial effects from any compound people have taken here to come from such unknown or little known properties. I am NOT saying anywhere here with the only so slightly contrasted confidence you have displayed for so long that the root of our problem is most likely this or that. I’m just keeping some hypothesis open when there is potential evidence to support them, and I am putting great effort in this because some of these hypothesis have been abusively ridiculed/written off by mew then his mewbots for a very long time now, without any solid evidence to allow it, other than "“quacks like to “treat” it so it must be BS” and “if we have some infection then it can be an underlying condition and it wont help our legal case”. It does not “make me happy” to beleive that antifungals could maybe work because of their antifungal properties (and same thing for abx) but at least it keeps me intellectually honest, since I am not attributing imaginary properties to “working” compounds or stretching the datas just to fit a pre-conceived theory. Where is the evidence for you to affirm that “things are more complicated than that”? They do NOT have to be (I know you observed defects at the molecular level but it doesnt mean in any way that the origins of this damage necessarily primarily stems from that same level). Oscar was I beleive the first one to talk about Occam’s razor here : the simplest theory, that makes the fewest assumptions if most likely to be the correct one. NOT the “more complicated” one.
Oh, and the fact that you are putting time and money into this does not mean that you can say whatever you feel to a crowd of desperate people and not expect to be scrutinized. If you truely want to help the least thing you should do is to apply the utmost rigor to everything that relates to your PFS research, ESPECIALLY when you have the pretense to be the only and final “official” PFS research instigator on this website (as you and mew plans to close down the “theory” section definitely tells us). You and mew have focused exclusively on Jacob’s theory for years and you are now falling into the “sunk cost bias” mind trap. Accepting to receive the possibility to have, maybe, been on the wrong track for a long time (and not interpreting early positive results as a definitive confirmation of your theory) is a NECESSITY if you want to be tackling this problem with a TRUELY scientific method, which is what we all need.