I always recall the series of events in my head and how i got to the stage we all are. I remember every dose of fin affecting my brain negatively in terms of mood. I cannot understand why people manipulate their hormones for endless years (steroid abusers) and do not end nearly as low as we. It must be something else apart from pure hormonal issue. I used to believe the androgen receptor theory but this does not explain why we still growing beards, muscles, etc even in a lower rate. I strongly believe that there has been a form of brain damage, and by that i do not mean brain cells damaged, but brain structure in relevance with the chemical messages the brain sends to the body. If you asked me this includes neurosteroids and neurotransmitter issues. The body acts as a whole and most people here have spent money in doctors who specialize in one area and thus treated the patients in particularly with their practice area. Maybe a psychiatrist would be able to help as long as he has thorough understanding in the area of neurotransmitters. Maybe with a strong medication therapy which includes anti-depressants and serotonin enhancing agents, maybe we get better and find a balance. As far we know that nothing works in terms of manipulating the body with hormones so by targeting the brain directly could be the solution.
Guys i need help with a little bit of brainstorming. Feel free to reply your thoughts. I live in this hell for 4 months now, i know it is little time comparing other members here and i trully admire anyone who is able to handle this for so long. It means they are very strong. During those 4 months I am trying not to lose my mind and I am thinking 24/7 what is the root cause of this and how I can get over it. I have read almost all this forum thoroughly trying to understand from other members experiences what helps and what doesn’t. I have observed a transition of the central idea from an hormonal issue to a neurosteroids/neurological issue. I believe people who were not able to combat this on the hormonal way is a clear indicator that there’s something else behind all this. The AR signaling theory which awor expressed is still a possibility even though the treatment he undergo-ed brought little results. I strongly believe the root of the problem is neurological. The hormonal alterations derive from neurological damage, and people on trt,hcg,clomid/nolva and other hormones were just trying to solve the puzzle in the wrong way, thus, little to no results. This forum is a fountain of information and i am really glad it exists. I have seen many doctors and when im referring to this website they act as it is a joke or sth and this pisses me off everytime. All this time i have observed the signals my body is sending, and i dont know why in such a short term i have experienced nearly all the side effects, like the syndrome is on fast forward. Firstly, it was the hot flashes, then the extreme anxiety and panic attacks along with sleep disturbance. it evolved on ed,loss of libido,rapid weight change sometimes holding excess water, then suddenly loss of it. I did recover for a small period 20 days approximately with return of 80% libido and no ed at all. The connection of mind penis was restored. I was having sex like a maniac those days like i got out of prison lol.Even my adiol G doubled, i was monitoring all the time every 2 weeks or so. Then i tried to combat my sleeping problem which still persisted and a neurologist gave me zolpidem. after two pills i was back again. i do not know if i was crashed i just felt depressed for two straight days and then side effects came back. I understood that zolpidem intervened in my brains balance and things went downhill.
Again a variety of side effects some new some like before, fatigue,ed,libido loss,even low production of boogers/ear wax. I understand this syndrome derives from the high chambers, the brain. or the central nervous system if you prefer. My central nervous system was extremely disturbed by the use of finasteride which i used it only 3 times-5mgs in total,another clear sign directing to the nervous system. no matter if someone took 5000 thousand pills or just one, if your nervous system is prone to negative alterations, it will fight back. And by that i mean that the nervous system is stuck in a negative response, fighting our own bodies, thus the rapid muscle wastage, atrophies etc. My testo-e2-lh-fsh were not really altered and im getting the same issues as others with hormonal inbalances. Another clear indicator pointing to the nervous system. The alteration in hormones is a secondary issue imo. I must add that i do not really want to believe in some epigenetic change because this would be disasterous and likely untreatable and with more serious concerns i do not want to discuss right now.
So, right now our bodies are stuck in a state where our secondary needs are being in hold,by the central system. The few people who claim to be recovered, have done it by these routes:
a)overtime by healthy lifestyle, good sleep and exercise—nervous system calms down and readjusts overtime and good sleep. also exercise makes nervous tissue repair.
b)progesterone cream/allopregnanolone/ selegiline—all readjust neurotransmitters in the brain
c)gaba—helps restore deep sleep and thus nervous system repair
Guys feel free to contribute in this. you are welcomed
The thing that worries me the most is the crash that nearly everyone has experienced. What is the purpose of it? it definitely is a negative response from our bodies when the levels of dht rise again. The theory which supports that the AR were upregulated while on the drug and then the rise of dht made them downregulated, makes sense. Most of the symptoms which i experience seem to correlate with this. Its like everything is still there but in less quantity, libido,sex,hair/beard growth etc. But again, if this was the case, the AR should be upregulated again by the use of exogenous hormones, or being corrected to its prior function by our own body. Therefore, we could say there is a permanent damage done, most likely to the 5AR2. The low levels of 3adiolG which nearly all people here have seems to support this theory, as it is an accurate indicator of 5AR2 activity. But then again, why did i see my 3adiolG values doubled at some point which I also experienced normal ED and nearly normal libido? It remained that way until i took the zolpidem pills. Could we say that when we have good days, as everyone is experiencing from time to time, our adiolG goes up temporarily and then normal functions of our body are restored? And why our bodies cannot stay like that and it goes down again? which function is happening which makes our systems unstable? Is it brain signals (neurosteroids) that do not come steady? Is there something blocking these signals? Or our bodies are trying hard to find an alternative route for things to go back in normal? The latter is a usual phenomenon, the body can adapt. Maybe the people who recovered, experienced this rather than a natural recovery. Maybe their bodies found another way of performing the necessary hormone metabolism.
On the other hand, taking a neurological apporach on the issue, most symptoms seem to correlate. If your nervous system is not normal, you cant sleep properly, you get depressed, fatigued etc. Could we say that a neurological imbalance in the brain is responsible for the whole mess? dopamine, serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine, does an imbalance of those result to such extreme symptoms? Do these neurotransmitters have any role in hormone metabolism? Does the 5AR2 need signals from the brain to function? or is it an automatic procedure controlled by the receptors when hormones are produced? the latest researches have found an imbalance of hormones in the brain. But they examined only pfs sufferers which are likely suffering from low testosterone, and we know that hormones can affect neurosteroids. What if their imbalance is a result of low testosterone and not by pfs itself? and why 3 out of 10 people with pfs have normal hormone values but still experiencing symptoms? is it because their pituitary gland was not affected that hard and is still giving commands to the body to produce hormones? and what can we assume with the fact that even with normal values, symptoms persist? Is there something going on on cellular level? and this creates a negative response, for some strong enough for their bodies to stop producing adequate hormones as their system functions in a way that does not need it anymore? Things like this exist in the human body, is smart enough to understand every change and respond. People on trt experiencing testicular shrinkage, the balls do need to work anymore as testosterone is there already.
Also, why nearly all people who recovered mentioned physical activity as a huge contributor? what does exercise make to our bodies that it can fix it? is it the stress that the body undergoes, which forces it to wake up and start functioning? is it because exercise is good for the nervous system as it promotes nervous tissue repair, and also has effect on neurotransmitters? or increased bloodflow in the brain?
Do the adrenals play any role in this? i know from personal experience that my adrenals went crazy. cortiso high, acth high, 17-OH-progesterone very very high, androstenedione high. My adrenals tried to balance my situation by raising production of these hormones to fill the needs. Some people mention in their recoveries that they started to get better when they stopped thinking about it that much. Maybe this happened because their adrenals calmed down.
I have made this thread like a diary i know, but its the best way to keep track of my thinking and maybe someone else has to add something from personal experience.
I think you’re correct. There is a reprogramming of the brain structure. I feel this happening at night. I’m 3 months into my PFS, after taking it for 14 years. Significant brain changes are occurring. I may only be able to notice them now in these early stages.
Brain[edit]
Circulating levels of androgens can influence human behavior because some neurons are sensitive to steroid hormones. Androgen levels have been implicated in the regulation of human aggression[5] and libido. Indeed, androgens are capable of altering the structure of the brain in several species, including mice, rats, and primates, producing sex differences.[8] Numerous reports have shown androgens alone are capable of altering the structure of the brain,[9] but identification of which alterations in neuroanatomy stem from androgens or estrogens is difficult, because of their potential for conversion. Evidence from neurogenesis (formation of new neurons) studies on male rats has shown that the hippocampus is a useful brain region to examine when determining the effects of androgens on behavior. To examine neurogenesis, wild-type male rats were compared with male rats that had testicular feminization mutation (TMF), a genetic disorder resulting in complete or partial insensitivity to androgens and a lack of external male genitalia. Neural injections of Bromodeoxyuridine (BrdU) were applied to males of both groups to test for neurogenesis. Analysis showed that testosterone and dihydrotestosterone regulated adult hippocampal neurogenesis (AHN). Adult hippocampal neurogenesis was regulated through the androgen receptor in the wild-type male rats, but not in the TMF male rats. To further test the role of activated androgen receptors on AHN, flutamide, an antiandrogen drug that competes with testosterone and dihydrotestosterone for androgen receptors, and dihydrotestosterone were administered to normal male rats. Dihydrotestosterone increased the number of BrdU cells, while flutamide inhibited these cells. Moreover, estrogens had no effect. This research demonstrates how androgens can increase AHN.[10] Researchers also examined how mild exercise affected androgen synthesis which in turn causes AHN activation of N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors. NMDA induces a calcium flux that allows for synaptic plasticity which is crucial for AHN. Researchers injected both orchidectomized (ORX) (castrated) and sham castrated male rats with BrdU to determine if the number of new cells was increased. They found that AHN in male rats is increased with mild exercise by boosting synthesis of dihydrotestosterone in the hippocampus. Again it was noted that AHN was not increase via activation of the estrogen receptors.[11] Androgen regulation decreases the likelihood of depression in males. In preadolescent male rats, neonatal rats treated with flutamide developed more depression-like symptoms compared to control rats. Again BrdU was injected into both groups of rats in order to see if cells were multiplying in the living tissue. These results demonstrate how the organization of androgens has a positive effect on preadolescent hippocampal neurogenesis that may be linked with lower depression-like symptoms.[12] Social isolation has a hindering effect in AHN whereas normal regulation of androgens increases AHN. A study using male rats showed that testosterone may block social isolation, which results in hippocampal neurogenesis reaching homeostasis—regulation that keeps internal conditions stable. A Brdu analysis showed that excess testosterone did not increase this blocking effect against social isolation; that is, the natural circulating levels of androgens cancel out the negative effects of social isolation on AHN.[13]