Body responds negatively to androgens

It is pretty rational to assume that some people prefer other people to take risks that they are not willing to take themselves.The incentive/motive is entirely obvious: reap the benefits without having to endure potential downsides. It is risk outsourcing. It makes a lot of sense and is pretty much what most people here do who are happy to read experiences from other people, while not taking any risks themselves. That is understandable.

Now add desperation/immorality and some people will think they can trick people into taking the risk by pretending they had a positive experience on the drug. Again, this may be morally corrupt, but it is pretty logical:

a) ā€œI have PFS and I want to treat it.ā€
b) ā€œI think ā€œXYā€ may have benefits in treating PFS.ā€
c) ā€œI am afraid to try ā€œXYā€, because I could get worse.ā€
d) ā€œWhenever people post positive experiences on the forum, other people immediately jump on the bandwagon and try the same thing.ā€
e) ā€œIf I pretend to have had a positive experience from XYā€, people will try it and report their experiences. I will then have more information about whether ā€œXYā€ can help with XY without taking any risk".

Again, this is entirely logical, albeit morally corrupt. Your argument that there is no rational incentive is clearly wrong.

This is also not a ā€œwild theoryā€ or ā€œconspiracy theoryā€. A person being an opportunistic a****** is hardly a wild theory. And if thatā€™s the weakest ā€œconspiracy theoryā€ youā€™ve read, it is probably the first. You realize that there are people out there who think almost all scientists and governments around the world including hundreds of thousands of people (many of them civilian) with different values, interests and allegiances have conspired to: a) fake a pandemic, so that a certain president looses an election, b) to hide the fact that the Earth is flat, c) to pretend the earth is warming to increase taxes etc.? Oh, and Lizard people!

So, a person being an opportunistic a****** and with an obvious incentive is not a ā€œwild theoryā€ and not a ā€œconspiracy theoryā€. I mean, it literally cannot be a conspiracy theory as a conspiracy by definition involves multiple people. Nobody has suggested that PAL has colluded with anyone.

Now I think it is pretty obvious that there is a logical incentive to lie and that you have been wrong about there not being any such incentive. Your claims that this ā€œtheoryā€ is particularly ā€œwildā€ or ā€œweakā€ are clearly wrong as well. But Iā€™ll give you one more to end this right here.

This thing, you know, this ā€œwild theoryā€, this thing without any ā€œLOGICAL incentiveā€, that ā€œwasnā€™t rational at allā€, ā€œone of the weakest conspiracy theoriesā€ you have read, is LITERALLY what happened on a PSSD forum, where a user admitted to have lied about positive benefits from a drug to trick people into taking it. It wasnā€™t the first time this happened there either and it has probably happened here, too.

I understand that people here are desperate and want to focus on the positives and ignore all the negatives, including negative effects from ā€œtreatmentsā€ and the idea that some users and their story may be fake to trick people, troll people or get money from people. But these things happen. Ignoring them will not make these things go away and leads to posts like this, where you take up a completely irrational stance and have been spectacularly wrong.

Finally, we will probably not find out whether PALā€™s story is genuine or not. Calling him a liar is therefore wrong in my eyes. There is a large history of attempting treatment with Proviron on this forum. People should take into account all experiences recorded here and apply a healthy dose of skepticism, especially to unusual stories from people with no track record. Now, if anyone still wants to go ahead and try to replicate his story, please record your experience here.

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Heā€™s rightā€¦The outsourcing of risks/guinea pigs isnā€™t anything new, and the lack of a posting history is a big strike against anyone espousing a ā€œcure.ā€ And this is coming from someone on the Proviron protocol.

With that said, Iā€™m usually a pretty good reader of people and judge of credibility. Pal didnā€™t seem to be a socio/psychopath (I believe thatā€™s the level of immorality it takes for someone to f**k with us like that). The truth is weā€™ll probably never know because of the lack of consistency in the way we all respond to thingsā€¦itā€™s enough to drive you crazy. I also didnā€™t view Proviron as some extremely risky drug, like many on here have suggested. For me, AIā€™s and SERMS have been much harsher. I think the riskiest aspect is the UGL sourcing (and whatever cheap binders/excipients they might use), rather than the drug itself.

I happen to be responding positively to Proviron. However, the benefits so far are mostly sexual. Not a ton of energy or fat loss, but overall I feel healthier (above PFS baseline) and I have gained a few lbs of muscle over the last month (thatā€™s normally hard as hell with PFS, especially since the gym is still closed).

The sexual benefits are marked (libido, erections, sensation, and orgasm), as if that part of me is responding normally to the increase in androgens. I have no idea what all this means in terms of where I fit in on the PFS spectrum or any rebound-recovery after I withdraw. Iā€™ve got about 5 days left in the experiment.

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Iā€™m not sure why anyone would want to outsource risks. Everyoneā€™s PFS is different, and what works for one person probably wonā€™t work for someone else.

Canā€™t say Iā€™m not prone to a good old fashion conspiracy theory but I think Iā€™ll go with my intuition on this one. Thanks for your enlightenment

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Great to hear man!

I canā€™t take this anymore guys the pain is on another level anytime that I walk or do any form of exercise the bone pain gets worse and worse, heart palpitations are through the roof, I woke up earlier and had a panic attack or may have been in a state of psychosis completely out of nowhere I donā€™t even know how to explain it but I didnā€™t even know where I was couldnā€™t recognise my own apartment Iā€™m not making this up it was also followed by intense suicidal ideations this is completely uncharacteristic of me. If I masterbate symptoms are 10 fold, itā€™s like my body canā€™t handle androgens at all anymore, the bone pain is horrendous, I need advice guys what do I do I donā€™t want to die this is beyond torture.

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@Papasmurf I know you not making any of this up itā€™s like a horror movie. I get you trying masturbators only to see if it brings on an improvement in any way this also makes me worse so I leave well alone. I donā€™t know what to say other than to prey mate like you
Iā€™m struggling to cope any longer. Iā€™ll include you in my preys. Being with your folks may help make you feel safe rather than being alone in your apartment. :heartbeat:

Itā€™s unreal man this disease is so fucking cruel I have PFS in every part of me including the bottom of my feet like how is that even possible to lose the cushion on the feet all from one pill.

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I know mate. I canā€™t even hold full carrier bags because the handles feel like knife blades against my palms because of the same thing been awake all night with a feeling of being smashed in the face as my eyes sockets drop to bits. Itā€™s fucking unbearable mate this is on top of everything else and the hormonal shit killing me with anxiety, suicidal ideation, etc. Sorry mate I try to offer some comfort but get into my own hell. Someone out there needs to see what is happening to us. How many more have to go through this before the world takes notice. Get around your folks itā€™s the best thing you can do right now

Everyday i wakeup in the morning from my unrefreshed 6 hrs sleep, i am just in regret and remorse. I have been totally suicidal since 3 months and keep visiting this forum every few hours in need of some hope. I have read 1000s of post here and i got no answer for my miserable condition. Even the disease is not a problem, but the thought that this disease is permanent and i am just 22 year old who has whole life ahead is what makes me suicidal. I am just trying to cope becoz of my mother. She is my responsibility. She has already suffered a lot in her life and now itā€™s me. I feel like this miserable condition is due to some of my bad karma. But then again, there are more bad people than any of us who live their life king size. I have started to have paranoia. I have become jealous of people around me. Last week i had my final exam and i was about to faint in the examination hall becoz my body cant handle the stress anymore. My hands started to become pale. Felt like i have nothing left in my body. My results came yesterday and i am the last in my class even though i have been preparing for this exam since months day and night. The depression and anhedonia i have is miserable. I canā€™t blame anyone. It is all becoz of me and my stupid decision of saving hair.

U need to know that there are a lot of people in this world like u. Some are suffering even more than us.

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Can somebody stell my who low DHT should be the answer?
Low DHT is the Problem right and couses by negativ Feedback in the Hypothalamus because of the sensitiv AR .
So im my world its absoluty logical to use high DHT to to get the AR used to High DHT levels.
Or whats the Problem with this Theorie im new here so please tell me why ?
Yes the the AR is sensitiv but you could rise the levels slow every week step by step .

Stay positive guys , things will improve with time ( donā€™t listen to the negative folks who tell you otherwise ) , bear in mind that itā€™s a slow process and that most people wonā€™t heal overnight , good things take time to come to fruition @LazarusRy @Papasmurf

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Can you share any previous bloodwork? This level of anxiety/suicidal ideation indicates your Serotonin may be way too low. Iā€™ve had similar experience when my estrogen was too low due to taking several anti-estrogen plus androgenic stuff. Iā€™ve said this a million times already, donā€™t push androgens too high with androgenic stuff (proviron included) if youā€™re unsure what is your estrogen level. Those heart palpitations may mean your adrenaline is shooting through the roof.

Try and test your estrogen level (E2) ASAP. Meanwhile; ~25mg-50mg 5-htp may temporarily help until your get needed tests done.

Interesting take , i have a lowish T for my age (in the 300s) and my estradiol level is very high (around 45 pg/ml ) , i was planning to do a clomid + armidex but recently iā€™ve backtracked re the armidex , i think iā€™ll go with clomid solo even if my Estradiol level goes through the roof @doomed80

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What are the symptoms of a typical low estrogen?

In your particular case, Iā€™d consider natural ways/supplements as a first line of attack to balance estrogen and improve T:E2 ratio. By simply lowering E2 to a more healthy level will help raise your Testosterone and DHT. E2 is part of the HPTA-axis negative feedback loop, meaning the hypothalamus controls Testosterone production through monitoring its level and adjust LH & FSH accordingly.

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Anxiety; fat gain; lethargy; joints pain; low libido; anhedonia; night sweats; suicidal ideation (when level gets way too low) to name a few.

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Which ways/supplements do you recommend ? thanks @doomed80

Please do your own research before taking anything as to not jeopardize further worsening of your issues. That said, the following may help lower E2 and balance things out:

Tongkat Ali: Iā€™ve taken 160mg/d from brand ā€œSource Naturalsā€ before. Itā€™s among the few herbs out there with actual studies supporting it to raise T. It helps lower SHBG and E2, which increases free T and DHT.

Also green tea exract, cruciferous vegetables such as Broccoli, olive oil, Vitamins E and K2, and Zinc. Losing extra weight (and fat) also helps.
@PFS25

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Thanks for your reply , iā€™m already on 500g broccoli per day and iā€™m doing another blood test to check if E2 level went down but iā€™m relucant to use zinc and other vitamins , i crashed on zinc 8 months into pfs ( extensive work out also played a part in this ) itā€™s an 5ar inhibitor and i donā€™t think itā€™s safe for pfs especially if you abuse on it , tongkat ali sounds promising though , iā€™d certainly give it a shot

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