Autoimmunity to DHT And a possible Solution for some of us?

General Discussion
#1

Hello guys,

First of all i am feeling much better. I have no side effects, my libido is satisfactory - not completely there yet- but i am getting slowly better and better.

May be we are close in finding significant clues to a solution. I have created a document which outlines the theory of us having autoimmunity to DHT (NOT Resistance - this was an incorrect term that i also used) and how i began feeling better. If this continues for another 15 days i will be much more confident on what happens at least for some of us.

Feel free to ask anything.
PFS.pdf (102 KB)

#2

I have read your theory and I agree to you to some extant. yes there is some kind of immune system involvement but can not say definitely against what. you mentioned Milk, yes I feel bad but many claim it raises Estrogen. Basically what you are talking about is called Oral tolerance. just google it.

the capacity of the immune system to recognize substances taken in through the digestive system and to weaken or suppress the immune response to them
Now we know some of us reused Fin/SP and claim they feel better. here is few examples

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2195&p=12844#p12844 Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:14 pm
Ridiculous as it sounds, I’ve started taking saw palmetto again…ince I’ve been taking it again, I’m oddly actually feeling much, much better. I’ve had morning wood every single day this week, penis feels better overall, more frequent erections, etc. This is crazy, and I don’t know if it’s a placebo or if it’s the real deal, but it is happening.
and to my PM his response on Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:27 am is

Hey mate,
Yeah I did eventually recover from the ill effects of SP. It took a couple of months but I’m now pretty much as I was before.

My internet search found that Mirena IUD based on fake progesterone creates the same PFS, and funnily for most women crash starts after removing the Mirena IDU. It is so common that if you type Post Merine IUD crash on the internet dozones of sites will open up.
Any way here is a qoute from a post. The woman claims after she got side effects after removing IUD she used birth control pills and she feels better

I am with a new wonderful doctor who actually listens. She thinks i may have endometriosis in my chest cavity.
She doesn’t believe, as most don’t, that the mirena is involved. However, the chest pain started within days of removal.
I was put on birth control pills to alleviate endometriosis symptoms, and all of my abnormal symptoms dissapeared. Except the chest pain.
I believe that returning those synthetic hormones into my symptoms via the birth control pills, filled the mirena hormone void. I do not want to be on these pills for life, however, I hope in time i can ween back off of them.

Note: I don’t endorse that this is solution neither I plan to go back on SP. I will stay away from it or Fin

#3

Has anyone ever recovered from going back on Fin then going off again? I’ve read several accounts of people who tried and ended up WAY worse. I’m never touching that shit again under any circumstances, but it’s interesting.

#4

While you must’ve spent a fair amount of time typing up your document, there is not a single scientific footnote included in it to substantiate your thoughts/opinions. Hence, this is simply your opinion based on anecdotal observations.

While I commend yours and others’ commitment to trying to find ways to resolve PFS, the fact is this problem requires in-depth scientific investigation by the research community – something which the PFS Foundation is trying to organize on all of our behalf.

Therefore, rather than investing energy/theorizing opinions, donate towards the PFS Foundation at pfsfoundation.org/donate towards real research initiatives which will produce hard scientific data instead.

Leave the theorizing to those who are qualified - the scientific community. Your time would be better spent contacting media and generating awareness for our cause. Best of luck to you.

#5

Hello again,

Sprstriken, regarding milk it appears that it raises DHT :

Cap : I did not say that you should touch Fin. Perhaps the trick is to introduce DHT to your body smoothly as opposed to quitting abruptly the drug. As i say to the doc IN THEORY we are in a Catch-22 :

-If we inhibit DHT then no wood.
-If we do not inhibit DHT, the immune system attacks all sites where DHT exists

So there are two possible solutions :

  1. Use an immunosuppressant
  2. Find the “Sweet-spot” of having enough DHT to have wood but not to induce an attack from your immune system and slowly eliminate DHT inhibition so that DHT is introduced to your body slowly. This is what i am currently trying to do.

This came to my mind because when i inhibited 5-AR for 15 days and stopped it abruptly i had again 4-5 attacks in a period of 10 minutes and i was attack-free for all the period (15 days) that i was suppressing DHT…Coincidence? Yeah right. Then this whole theory “clicked”

Mew :

I am not trying to make any claims as i do not have the theoretic background to do so. I am trying to find what is going on because this drug has destroyed my -and our- lives. I will never stop trying to find a solution. Never.

You are way,way more knowledgeable to PFS than what i am. You say

Agreed…but which thoughts/opinions Are you talking about specifically?

  • Autoimmunity to DHT?
    -That DHT exists in parts of Brain, Adrenals, Skin, Liver?
    -That Astaxanthin and Mushrooms is a 5-AR Inhibitor?
    -Regarding “De-senzitizing” the immune system?

All :

I have seen a top endocrinologist here. He is not able to neither back my theory or deny it. He also said that to his best of knowledge there are no antibodies to DHT available. I explained the whole thing with red peppers and he said that the correct way to be sure about this is through testing of placebo. Of course he is right and i totally agreed with him.

A Reumatologist has also said to me that immunosuppression is serious business using toxic methods and that he would never prescribe anything like that.

I will keep you posted when i also try N-Acetyl-Glucosamine (a possible immunosuppressant) and how my current regimen goes.

#6

Hormone allergy.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16533343

#7

Hej mariovitali

I can not see your docment PFS. pdf.

Can you help me. ( mayby you could send it to me)

Regards Sonder

#8

I sent you the file with PM

#9

Hej mariovitali.

I got It.

Thanks

#10

Tim1911, nice find. I think if you read the previous rat studies with regards to effect on neurosteroids and the abstracts about the 3 patients with abnormally low progesteone metabolites, something happened at the progesterone receptor. It is my belief that somehow progesterone in the brain was reduced at the receptor site in favor of estrogen. I have always stuck to this theory and I believe this is what will eventually be found

1 Like
#11

Hello All,

I attached an updated -and corrected- version of the document. So far :

I continue to feel better, no psychological problems, sleeping great, more social. Libido at 65%, No “attacks”.

I have added two more examples of analysis called Decision Trees which i believe will clarify things a bit more. I have attached them to this message so you know where to look them for in the document.

Mew i have added some references regarding the 5-AR inhibition of white-button mushrooms. For red peppers (Astaxanthin) i have already posted a reference to a patent (patentgenius.com/patent/6277417.html).

It is also my intention to send this document to the PFS Foundation. I’d rather being ridiculed than (one in a million) having something that could lead to a solution.

If you find any inconsistencies or have any questions/clarifications please let me know.

Best,

Mario
PFS.pdf (165 KB)


neurological.png849Ă—496 19.3 KB

#14

Good idea Mario. Autoimmunity against DHT is definitely worth investigating.

How many red peppers did you start off with?
and how many red peppers do you eat per day now?

#15

Started off at 4 grams and now i am down to 2 grams each morning. I am expecting an answer from Dr Anne Ganzer which i believe is a coleague of Dr Crisler. I sent to her a reviewed document that i posted here and she said she will review it and get back to me.

#16

Anne ganzer works with Dr. Jacobs

#17

@FinaTruth thanks.

I attach the latest revised document. There is still a lot more information to be added but unfortunately i work way too much and thus i do not have enough time to have everything in sync.

I attached a Variable Importance Plot which shows Red Peppers, Sugar and Vitamin D3 as most important features in predicting Bad vs Good Days. Notice also variable “neurological” which suggests a correlation between Neurological side effects and my “attacks”

On the libido side all is going well but most importantly libido is STABLE. No “attacks” for the past 20 days or so which hasn’t happened to me for at least a couple of years (used to be every 3-4 days max). Keeping fingers crossed until the one month mark…

One thing i noticed (but it could be just my impression) is that i experience heart palpitations(irregular heartbeat) in the morning when i drink my T4 tablets (62 mcg) and continue having them until 18:00-19:00 hrs. Could this be that i am turning hyperthyroid? I will keep monitoring my heartbeat to see whether this is steadily going up and then test for a Thyroid panel. If this is happening then we have yet one more signal that things are getting better.

Mario


PFS.pdf (217 KB)

#18

Mario, it will be interesting to see how your plan works out.

One thing i have noticed is that i feel a lot better the day after eating salmon (which as you pointed out, contains a 5AR inhibiting substance).

You made a good point towards the end of your document by advising not to eat salmon/red peppers/mushrooms at the same time as you could over inhibit 5AR. I’d also add not to take any zinc supplements at the same time either, as its another 5AR inhibitor.

Keep us posted on how you’re doing.

#19

I dont think its the inhibition affects of 5ar…the neurosteroid studies will possibly show this.

#20

@noniman,

There are some things stated in the document which are not clear, i will try to correct them. The document says at one point :

What this means is that for Salmon, mushrooms, zinc, magnesium i am not sure what happens… but i use zinc and magnesium since things are ok for me now and i dont want to mess things up. Regarding zinc there is controversial information as to whether it’s a 5-AR inhibitor (if my memory serves me well). Even though i state later that salmon caused problems, it could be that i was over-inhibiting 5-AR. I am mostly confident regarding the negative effect of mushrooms.

There are lot more things which i did not write but currently looking at them

  1. Weather changes affect me negatively
  2. When i eat high cholesterol foods i have much better libido
  3. Olive Oil affects me negatively

The same analysis i did for my attacks, i am doing for my libido, my sleep and my neurological problems. Hopefully i will get something out of this as well.

#21

mariovitali
your observation about Olive oil is exactly the same what I have observed. It raises Estrogen and I start spittin blood.I have stopped Olive oil long ago.
What is your observation about white button Mushroom? I felt a little better on them? but not sure now after stopping it.

#22

Sprstriken,

-Mushrooms are Aromatase and 5-AR Inhibitors. I always had low libido after eating them.
-Olive Oil affects negatively and i am “glad” you have the same observation
-Salmon had mixed results.
-DIM, Brocolli, Cabbage appear to affect negatively libido
-Stress (no surprises here) and alcohol affect it negatively.