Auto immune due to rebound of DHT / sperms?

General Discussion
#21

Mew – Although people with vasectomies didn’t take a 5AR inhibitor, they are suffering from similar side effects. You cannot just simply throw the theory away because none of us had vasectomies. Auto immune diseases effect a wide range of people from all different backgrounds.

spstricken – Good research my friend. I agree with you 150% that we are suffering from an auto immune disease. I came by the conclusion by seeing in my own strict diet how I have almost allergic reactions in my penis to certain foods. It’s pretty obvious to me that when I eat certain things, other bad things happen.

You are right that peyroines can be caused by an auto immune disorder. Sleep problems, brain fog, hearing loss, and body fatigue are other symptoms of having an auto immune disorder. However, there are many problems that cause the same side effects so I know that really won’t prove anything to anyone.

#22

yes this proves why men and women are similar in this problem.

#23

bryce54 there some differences though.

1-All vasectomized people have straight below normal TT level, whereas in our case many of us have above normal TT level. This is what I have found so far. I have not seen any one who got vasectomy and has problem despite with normal TT level or above normal.

2-Many websites describe vasectomy syndrome as a result of autoimmune due to sperms (these all websites don’t give the study or research). According to these websites (mens-hormonal-health.com/cause-of-low-testosterone.html) when sperms are contained they become foriengn objects to the body and auto immune system starts attacking their own sperms and destroy testicles as well.So it is primary hypogonadism in this case.

3-interstingly for some of these males TRT is not working and they have almost the same issues as we are having on this forum after using TRT.Again because of Autoimmune? Another intesting thing is their low FSH and LH although they look primary by all accounts.I don’t know why? in case of primay hypogonadism FSH and LH are many timse the normal values.

This autoimmune b/c of sperms seprate us (fin users males and females) and vasectomized people. Our auto immune maybe is because of DHT after using 5ARIs . that is the only thing which put males and females or trans sexuales in the same basket.
So to summ it up.
we used 5 ARis our DHT went to ground
we stopped it and DHT returns we feel well for couple of weeks
our Auto immune systems sees DHT and kicks in and as time goes by we feel worse and worse.

This is just a theory.

#24

Doesn’t dexamethasone provide the perfect experimental treatment for this theory?

#25

yes it does but we should know the root cause for persistant inflammantion. I think of two causes

1-Damage to our CNS or selective MS. There is a good theroy in our forum just search it.
2-general cellular damage due to appoptosis caused by 5ARi use.

The Effect of 5 {alpha}-Reductase Inhibitors on Erectile Function – Canguven and Burnett 29 (5): 514 – Journal of Andrology
Four weeks later, blood samples were obtained for the determination of serum T and DHT levels, and penile tissues were taken for scanning electron microscopy. The T and DHT levels in castrated rats and the DHT level in finasteride-treated groups were significantly lower than those in the control group. In the castrated animals, there was a high degree of fibrosis in the corpus cavernosum with irregularly arranged collagenous fibers and a marked decrease in smooth muscle fibers, while in the DHT-inhibited group (finasteride-treated), the corpus cavernosum comprised a substantial amount of thick and irregularly arranged collagenous fibers, but the degree of fibrosis was less than that of the castration group (Shen et al, 2000)

That is why I have been asking members here

to go for tests to detect Autoimmun ( ANA, ESR etc. I don’t know if there are more accurate tests maybe some body can help use here)
to go for biopsy to find if there are any scar tissues. People are scared of biopys it is not painfuil. I got it done on my stomach no problem no pain.

It is very important we find whether we have autoimmune and inflmmantion both or just the inflammation only.

#26

Can it simply be lack of T, which is involved in cellular repairs?

#27

some pfs sufferers have above normal T so you are wrong.

#28

we have been discussing here that more alpha males are suffering more. Now I think there is some weight in our assumption.

quote from dontfixit.org/

Research has shown that a sperm count taken prior to vasectomy is a good indicator of the likelihood of this autoimmune response; the higher the sperm count, the more likely a man will become autoimmune after vasectomy.

I think you guys should read it. One reason that comes to my mind is that maybe maybe 5ARi caused some rupture in our epididymis or efferent duct?
Please read at dontfixit.org/
But that’s not all. When the rupturing occurs, sperm cells enter the blood stream, where they were not naturally intended to be. As a matter of fact, nature makes a very specific point of keeping sperm cells out of the blood stream, because sperm cells have very strong enzymes on their surfaces and only half a DNA strand. What does the body think is happening? The immune system is sent on full alert to fight off a perceived infection of millions of invading cells per day, and the body becomes “autoimmune”, i.e. the body goes to war on itself. Again from Campbell’s Urology: “Vasectomy results in violation of the blood-testis barrier producing detectable levels of serum antisperm antibodies in 60 to 80 per cent of men….” Once this reaction starts, it is nearly impossible to stop, even with a vasectomy reversal

Again if this the reason then my other assumption that we men and women suffer to gather will be proved wrong. I dont know I will keep searching untill God willingly I find the reason behind this all.

#29

Some interesting stuff your bringing out here SP but what have vasectomy’s got to do with us?

#30

autoimmune/inflammation and what else? I am also trying to figure out if vasectomized match with us 100%. They have a lot of similarities.

#31

I can’t even understand what you’re saying in that post.

#32

again vasectomized people have got hypothyroid just like us, pointing to autoimmune.

medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Autoimmune-issues-of-Vasectomy/show/225564

My vision has also gotten worse and I am becoming very forgetful. I have also begun to shake, my heart pound and I have pain in my eyes and vision problems (vibrating, pulsating). My last blood tests and a Thyroid Uptake test showed that I am now hyperthyroid.

#33

This is just conjecture. Comparing a man who underwent a small surgical procedure vs inhibiting 5AR2/hormones/neurosteroids and androgen deprivation body-wide is comparing apples to oranges. They are not even in the same ballpark.

Personally, I don’t believe everything I read online and neither should you, especially when its unrelated to Finasteride use.

Completely unrelated symptoms from a simple surgical procedure likely points to other problems with the individual which were either present beforehand or could be placebo/psychological. Trying to connect dots based on anecdotal anonymous reports from completely unrelated sample groups will likely yield little, if any insights other than further confounding the issue.

SP, you talked about HYPOthyroidism. This quote is for HYPERthyroidism. BIG difference.

Most guys on this site if they have thyroid issues, often have HYPOthyroidism (elevated TSH, or hashimoto’s). The only possible speculation I can see with regards to autoimmune involvement and the thyroid, is the fact that hashimoto’s is an auto-immune disease… but only a minority of men on this site have reported it, and it’s possible they have may been carriers before their Finasteride use. Then again, Finasteride could have exacerbated a thyroid condition, as there are men (self included) who noted increased TSH values while on Finasteride.

#34

[quote="MewThis is just conjecture. Comparing a man who underwent a small surgical procedure vs inhibiting 5AR2/hormones/neurosteroids and androgen deprivation body-wide is comparing apples to oranges. They are not even in the same ballpark.[/quote]
thanks Mew. It is true we have underwent adrogen deprivation bodywide. But I still think there is something in common. Alot of vasectomized people’s complaints/symptoms match 100%.This is can not be coincidence. These many people can not be wrong. I still think the common thing is Auto immune disorder or anti-bodies. Maybe maybe there is some link between anti-sperm anti bodies and DHT. who knows?The pattern of sides is so similar that it can not be ignored.Just like us some of them developed sides from within 15 days of vasectomy to 10 years after vasectomy and then gradually got worse over time.
I am thinking 5 ARIs have caused our bodies to develop anti-DHT anti bodies or Anti-testosterone anti bodies or maybe anti thyroid anti bodies. I know it looks far fetched ideas but hold on and look at
ehealthme.com/ds/finasteride/anti-erythropoietin+antibody+positive

On Jul, 30, 2011: 2,646 people reported to have side effects when taking Finasteride. Among them, 9 people (0.34%) have Anti-erythropoietin Antibody Positive.

I think this is the reason many including myself have Anaemia now.
also note Top conditions involved for these people * :
Myelodysplastic syndrome
Anaemia nos
Anaemia

And yes there are anti DHT and anti testosterone anti bodies for sale I don’t how they were developed? Maybe these sellers can help us in diagnosing anti bodies in our systems.
biocompare.com/ProductListings/3194/Dihydrotestosterone-DHT.html?types=6-77580&sb=true

#35

i started taking proscar 12 years ago. 1 year later i was diagnosed with an extremely rare auto immune disease called dermatomyositis. i never put the two together until finding this forum. i stopped taking proscar in december 2010. i am still battling the dermatomyositis which basically destroyed my life.

#36

Guys I still think our problem is auto immune caused by injury to our prostate or testicles by finasteride.
Look TRT also does not work on these guys and they get exactly what we are getting.
As far I know, No one has performed any anti sperm anti bodies test on this forum

Please read the story of skywalker45
His TRT stopped working

musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?7860-The-edge-of-the-precipice-and-giving-in

#37

I went to an immunologist and a rheumatologist. Both did extensive blood tests and agreed that it was not auto-immune. So at least for me, I’m pretty sure its not auto-immune.

#38

what blood tests?
did you get any anti sperm anti bodies test specifically?
there are some auto immune which are not easily detected by blood tests.

#39

No I didn’t get anti-sperm antibodies. But I don’t see how autoimmune against sperm causes our symptoms. Maybe infertility yes, but not the other symptoms.

#40

ANTISPERMANTIBODIES
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067367991554X

47 subfertile men with significant titres of antispermantibodies were treated with one of two steroid regimens. The results were assessed by changes in sperm-counts and in serum antibody titres and by subsequent pregnancies. 15 oligozoospermic men were treated with prednisone 5 mg three times a day for 3-12 months. Sperm-counts became normal in 10 men and 4 of their wives became pregnant. 14 men with normal sperm-counts received the same treatment: antibody titres fell slightly and 3 of their wives became pregnant. 18 other men with normal sperm-counts were given one or more courses of methylprednisolone 96 mg/day for 7 days. There was a more pronounced fall in antibody titres in these men, and 7 of their wives became pregnant. Testicular biopsies in 3 men with high titres of antibodies and very low sperm-counts which became normal with prednisone showed adequate spermatogenesis; however, focal round-cell infiltration of seminiferous tubules was observed in 1 case. It is suggested that a steroid-responsive immune orchitis can occur spontaneously in man, and may contribute to the infertility of men with antispermantibodies.

and now look at correiovip’s recovery after using prednisone

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6341&p=53904&hilit=prednisone#p53904

The doctor told me I HAD to take prednisone and i took it for five days. In the first days my body felt very accelarated, like a hiperthyroidism episode. I felt a lot of energy, little sleep, sharper thinking, etc. But the remarkable thing is that my penis returned to the normal state when flacid, my libido went to the roof, and i was feeling very horny. It s been three months since that, and i ve had the best months since i took finasteride. I had perfect, normal, horny sex, with strong ejaculation in volume and force. Rock hard erections in any position, perfect orgasms that had a lasting effect and made me feel relaxed all day. I was craving sex everyday. Unfortunately the effect did not last for good. I am not feeling the same way anymore (which is very hard to deal with, this feeling of loss).