Auto immune due to rebound of DHT / sperms?

General Discussion
#1

Hi Guys
I wrote before that we share a lot of similarities with people who got auto immune disorder after vasectomy ,Indeed I am 100% sure our problem is autoimmune. AR insensitivity, no/ low responsese to TRT etc all look inter-related.
The first story is so much like that of mine that I re-read the story and look for the poster in case I had written the story (I have been on different forums).
we have seen propecia / saw palmetto drops number of sperms or in other words we get vasectomy. Is it impossible then our body kicks in auto-immune response just like people who get vasectomy. on a different forum I have read people get auto-immune response from vasectomy when sperms get out from ruptures in ducts, body’s auto immune does not recongnise them and attacks them ( this might be the reason many users keep worsoning and worsening over time) Only in case of auto-immune body keeps getting worse and worse over time instead of getting better.

I will write more I am doing from my work, don’t have time.

1-I am 41 years old and I had a vasectomy about 3 years ago. I had issues with pain for about a year, but that went away. I had been very active both weight training and running several times per week. About 8 months ago I began to have problems with pains in my stomach and intestines, constant gas, etc. As I have been seeing several specialists in an attempt to diagnose this issue, I noticed some other issues over time. Severe stiffness of all joints especially in the morning and then having issues with a dull ache in my testicles, incontinence, bladder pain and finally pain in many joints including the inside and outside of the hip, shoulders, elbos and hands. I have also had an extreme decrease in sexual function. I have had at least 100 different blood tests including everything you might think is the cause of these issues, an endoscopy, colonoscopy, cystoscopy(bladder), an upper GI with contrast and many more tests by now untold numbers of specialists with no smoking gun or even a diagnosis. At this point most of the doctors have sent me on my way stating there is nothing they can do for me. In the past few weeks now I have had extreme pain in the hips and other areas. This is not in the actual joint but more seems to be ligaments or tendons. My vision has also gotten worse and I am becoming very forgetful. I have also begun to shake, my heart pound and I have pain in my eyes and vision problems (vibrating, pulsating). My last blood tests and a Thyroid Uptake test showed that I am now hyperthyroid. The Endocrinologist states that this is not a reason for my other issues and has given me methimazole to help the hyperthyroidism. At this point, I am at my wits end. It is becoming impossible to walk, drive, work or even play with my children. My primary care doctor is heading towards a diagnosis that cannot be proven such as fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome, as he has mentioned each. I have read some articles about autoimmune responses to vasectomies and believe this is something I should begin to research. I know there is some research being performed and I am sure there are some doctors that have there own concerns about these autoimmune possibilities. Can you direct me towards any resources including research, drug trials or doctors related to the study of autoimmune diseases and particularly possible autoimmune effects of vasectomies? Any information you have to offer would be greatly appreciated. Whether that is any research information, doctors or hospitals doing research or even a doctor who believes autoimmune diseases exist and attempts to at least treat some of the symptoms. I am in the Boca Raton, FL area but at this point would go anywhere to work with some smart people that are going in the right direction. Although a cure would be wonderful, I can�t say it is expected. I just need to know I am moving in the right direction. Thanks.

1-http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy--Autoimmune-Response/show/225794

I am a 39 year old formerly very healthy male who had a vasectomy 3 years ago. Since then I have had a number of health issues arise, most of them over the past year, including tendonitis, bursitis, peyronie�s, hypogadism, chronic fatigue, severe allergies, and a current respiratory infection that is not responding well to antibiotics. I have seen 11 different doctors � all of them only want to treat the symptom presented to them and nothing else. No one will address the big picture. My ability to continue practicing effectively in my profession is in jeopardy.
I have become intrigued by the theory that my open end vasectomy has caused antibodies to the sperm running loose in the body and led to a more involved autoimmune problem. I have two questions:

  1. Is this a scenario you have seen before ?
  2. Is there any reason not to attempt a vasectomy reversal in hopes of reversing the whole autoimmune problem, or at least the hypogodism ?

Thanks you very much

#2

The problems you mention above have all been experienced by people due to finasteride without vasectomies. I believe the immune system plays a role as it is regulated by the hormone system. However without a mechanical cause of this you’re grasping at straws. I don’t mean to discourage you but the simplest explanation is usually right. Fin is the simplest explanation here in my opinion.

#3

Since then I have had a number of health issues arise, most of them over the past year, including tendonitis, bursitis, peyronie�s, hypogadism, chronic fatigue, severe allergies, and a current respiratory infection that is not responding well to antibiotics

Are we not getting inflammation? many are complaining and responding well to anti-inflamitory meds? Is not the indication that we are in auto-immune trap? Please re-read above patient says"including tendonitis, bursitis, peyronie�s, hypogadism, chronic fatigue" ?

He did not take fin (well aperently not) but having hypogonadism, peyronies, chronic fatigue etc.

#4

Again, I’m not disagreeing here, but the immune system is regulated by hormones. I think this is the obvious key here. Fin disrupted our hormonal balance and due to this our immune system isn’t being properly regulated, either going too strong or to weak.

#5

guys please read the comments by people who got vasectomy and debate how they are different from us. We have got the same issues as these people.Now it looks likes our problem started after the damage to our testicles, as almost all of us reported this.

vasectomy-information.com/wordpress/?p=134

I am giving one example you can see more like this

I think all men considering a vasectomy should have a baselline testosterone level drawn prior to the procedure. I suffered with pain for approximately 2 yrs post vasectomy and returned to the urologist and was told it was scar tissue. I then began to develop ED, reduced sensation on one side of the penis and low and behold a low testosterone 110 at age 40………couldn’t a vasectomy damage the very organ that contributes to testosterone development. Let’s keep an open mind you so called doctors.

#6

please read the following and decide yourself what we are having

dontfixit.org/

#7

No, we are different. They did not take a 5AR inhibitor which affects multiple hormonal pathways. We did.

As well, we’ve had guys diagnosed with tertiary hypogonadism, implying hypothalamic failure. This is in addition to case reports of guys no longer responding to TRT.

Our syndrome has nothing to do with vasectomies, but it seems you are trying to make connections where there are none to be made. I can’t fault you for trying to find reasons for persistent of our issues, but until we are investigated in the lab, no real answers will be found and all of this is simply conjecture.

#8

thanks Mew for your time and comments.That is what I want to create a theory and then split it.We have to look at every possibility.
what here in vasectomy is happening, during operation some sperms go into blood stream and cause immune system to kick in for antibodies. Now maybe DHT blockers did the same thing. I remember some users reported blood in thier semen, that means sperms mixed up with blood. Now please read the following, please make comments and prove it wrong. I think if thier LH and FSH are low too then for sure we are having some kind of autoimmune. BTW solonjk is constantly compaining about testiculare shrinkage.

dontfixit.org/forum/posts/093004.htm

had my reversal 1 month ago. I still have a little pain on both epididymides. There are inflamed again. Is it normal because I had chronic pain for 2 years? Does it take time to get back to normal? Anyway I think reversal did not work. I’m going to see another urologist tomorrow, he told me on phone it’s urgent to have a nerve block (injection of Marcaine). He also told me if it doesn’t work he can remove nerve from the spermatic cord. What do you think? I will also meet a psychologist next week. I hope it will help. Could you talk to me regarding hormone therapy? Does it help you?

By the way, someone from Ottawa, Canada reached me last week; another one with PVP. You know, the new urologist I met told me it should be forbidden to do vasectomies. He sees a lot of patients who have PVP. Every time he meets someone who wants to have a vasectomy, he tries to discourage him. I think I will be in good hands with him… he takes time to hear me and explain what the problem is. The other urologist did not do that with me.

Response: I had very sore epididymides after my reversal with lots of inflammation for months. It only decreased after I started the testosterone therapy and my sperm count went down, and so did the swelling in my epididymis, spermatocele cysts, and hydroceles that had formed. They eventually went away but have come back every time I have gone off the testosterone therapy. For me, the underlying nerve damage from the original vasectomy and subsequent procedures has been the most stubborn pain to resolve even after mitigating the autoimmune/congestion/rupturing symptoms with the testosterone therapy, but many men get pin relief from a reversal if it is done correctly and they don’t have extensive nerve damage.

I’d avoid the nerve blocks that can do as much to injure you again as help you unless there is some compelling reason for them. Try to get the inflammation down or the vas may swell and/or scar shut, and then the reversal is for naught. I’m glad you have found a urologist who you feel can help you and who has the opinions he does about vasectomy. Try to find a good pain specialist to work with in addition to the urologist and psychologist, and an endocrinologist to help with the testosterone therapy would be good. You need a whole team to help sort through the problems this chronic pain creates. Let me know how you are doing

#9

Hi all

I need your help guys. I am trying to see if AID (autoimmune disorder) is behind our problems. So far what I have found is people after Vasectomy become hypogonadal but I don’t know if thier LH and FSH increase or decrease. Assumption here is that if LH and FSH go down then they are like us, if not then they are different. Am I wrong or missig something? Please correct me.
So far what I have noticed is that in some of us TT is higher then normal yet have impotence and other problems like JN and fanjeera etc but most of us are hypogonadals.

Please bring up your points and findings.

sps

#10

also did anybody test for anti-sperm antibodies?

#11

here is looks I have found what I was looking for, low LH and FSH in vasectomized patients.

healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=693652&highlight=low+testosterone+lh

my wife and I have been trying to get pregnet for 4 years, after what we recently thought was an unsuccessful vasectomy reversal. turns out that my early sperm tests showed a low sperm count but with good swimmers but now less than 100k and no swimmers. I had my hormons checked and and my LH was under 2 and my testosterone was at 80. I have an upcoming MRI to check for petuitary leasions or tumors before they start any hormone therapy.
Now the reason for my post: What kind of difficulty am I looking at going through in getting my hormones right? I want to get my sperm factory going again and i’m suffering the worst emotional swings you could ever imagine. has anyone on this board gone through testosterone hormone therapy for fertility purpouses? How did it go? Has anyone gone through low Testosterone therapy for the severe depression and fatigue? how did it work out and how long did it take to get right and what are the side effects?
Read more at healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=693652&highlight=low+testosterone+lh&ktrack=kcplink

#12

spstriken, this is interesting, but it seems like the vasectomy cases are all dealing with classic hypogonadism. As in, their actual hormone levels are low. This is fairly easily treated with TRT or other methods, and truly very different from the cases on here. I think that most of us have pretty normal hormone levels, but have the symptoms of hyogonadism (as in, we have the symptoms of low male hormones, even though our male hormones are fine).

Having said that, I applaud your creative thinking. There are few things that make your theory tie together- specifically that there have been some recoveries via immunosuppressants. So I’m not poo pooing the concept that this is auto-immune in nature, but rather that it doesnt seem very similar at all to the vasectomy situation.

#13

Oh, and for the record, my personal hormones are all very healthy looking (at least the ones I’ve tested), and my sperm count is actually very high and healthy. I have two healthy children also (although we did have trouble conceiving- but it was on my wife’s side- ironically enough- for an autoimmune condition she had!).

#14

Ohhhh… I didn’t know that. I’m low.

#15

thanks nyer for taking the interest. The point here to note is here low LH and low T level. They are not primary but secondary hypogonadal. If I am not forgetting I also read that one vasectomized complained about TRT was not working for him. Also did you notice the above patient gradually decreased sperm count. This gradually declining pattern of side effects also points toward autoimmune. Most of the people gradually got worse in PFS. I was not that bad when I stopped SP I got worse nearly 3 - 4 months later.

sps

#16

I am putting two recoveries after the use of Dexamethasone. I think there is some potential and hope in Dexamethasone treatment.

steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/585761-finasteride-induced-serious-problems.html

Did you read it back? The user robbocopp replied to you.

realize this is an old thread - if you’re still checking it - but, I too have problems with finasteride… big ones… I wrote about it and argued against its use other than for prostate protection …

I had “similar” problems - but not as drastic.

I “cured” (harder erections, significantly increased sperm production and higher testosterone levels) my own using

a.) t4 at full replacement dosage …in my case 150mcg-200mcg/s day – this took me some of the way back, better erections and better sperm production (250testosterone levels before and 400after) … BUT - during finasteride use I developed HYPOTHYROIDISM (not saying it is DIRECTLY connected to but, damn it WHAT a coincidence at 34 !!) so perhaps this is why the t4 helped.

and for a completely UNKNOWN reason (not one I can explain medically)

b.) after an injury I took Dexamethasone - ONLY for 5 days - but, once I stopped, within a week my erections were GREAT and after retesting my testosterone levels were great (700)… I started growing again naturally, and felt great…

Cannot explain it … but, this is my experience

Is it possible after fin/sp use our immune system is attacking us?
did you try Dexamethasone? if yes could you give some updates?

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user cytochrome
Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:46 am

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1630&p=17147&hilit=I+took+propecia+for+a+long+time+5+years+#p17147

interestingly both above users saw good effects after stopping DM, few weeks after.

cytochrome got sides again when he used fin again. His last post was on Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:52 p viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2261&p=28676#p28676

we don’t know how is doing now.

Now see pubmed study, vasectomy cuases anti-body formation and that it got treated with DM
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7095171

Sperm-agglutinating and -immobilizing antibody formation following vasectomy prevented with dexamethasone in cynomolgus monkeys.
Curtis GL, Ryan WL, Lacy SS.
Abstract
Cynomolgus monkeys (Macaca fascicularis) were treated with 1.5 mg/kg dexamethasone (DEX) before (4 to 2 days) and after (0, 2, 4, and 7 days) vasectomy. Of the four monkeys treated with DEX, only one developed sperm antibody as measured by sperm-agglutinating and sperm-immobilizing assays. All six of the vasectomized monkeys not given DEX developed both agglutinating and immobilizing sperm antibodies. In this study, DEX given before and after vasectomy blocked sperm-agglutinating and -immobilizing antibody formation. We conclude that the major antigenic exposure to sperm responsible for sperm-agglutinating and -immobilizing antibody comes at the time of vasectomy.

Maybe Fin/ SP caused injury to our testicles or prostate to disturb immune system.
Some members already reported blood in their semen or yellowish semen which clearly indicates injury in that area.

#17

Plus ihatepropecia is still doing very well after using it too so that’s 3.

However, i don’t think your study tells us much at all in relation to PFS? and yellow semen doesn’t give a clue to injury, yellow semen = infection.

#18

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=dexamethasone%20sarm

Effects of a novel selective androgen receptor modulator on dexamethasone-induced and hypogonadism-induced muscle atrophy.
Jones A, Hwang DJ, Narayanan R, Miller DD, Dalton JT.
Source
Division of Pharmaceutics, College of Pharmacy, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA.
Abstract
Glucocorticoids are the most widely used antiinflammatory drugs in the world. However, prolonged use of glucocorticoids results in undesirable side effects such as muscle wasting, osteoporosis, and diabetes. Skeletal muscle wasting, which currently has no approved therapy, is a debilitating condition resulting from either reduced muscle protein synthesis or increased degradation. The imbalance in protein synthesis could occur from increased expression and function of muscle-specific ubiquitin ligases, muscle atrophy F-box (MAFbx)/atrogin-1 and muscle ring finger 1 (MuRF1), or decreased function of the IGF-I and phosphatidylinositol-3 kinase/Akt kinase pathways. We examined the effects of a nonsteroidal tissue selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM) and testosterone on glucocorticoid-induced muscle atrophy and castration-induced muscle atrophy. The SARM and testosterone propionate blocked the dexamethasone-induced dephosphorylation of Akt and other proteins involved in protein synthesis, including Forkhead box O (FoxO). Dexamethasone caused a significant up-regulation in the expression of ubiquitin ligases, but testosterone propionate and SARM administration blocked this effect by phosphorylating FoxO. Castration induced rapid myopathy of the levator ani muscle, accompanied by up-regulation of MAFbx and MuRF1 and down-regulation of IGF-I, all of which was attenuated by a SARM. The results suggest that levator ani atrophy caused by hypogonadism may be the result of loss of IGF-I stimulation, whereas that caused by glucocorticoid treatment relies almost solely on up-regulation of MAFbx and MuRF1. Our studies provide the first evidence that glucocorticoid- and hypogonadism-induced muscle atrophy are mediated by distinct but overlapping mechanisms and that SARMs may provide a more effective and selective pharmacological approach to prevent glucocorticoid-induced muscle loss than steroidal androgen therapy.

#19

?

#20

that DM is not safe, before going on it do more research.
And that I can not say any thing about recoveries from the use of DM, unless we contact these guys and see how they are feeling now.