Auto immune due to rebound of DHT / sperms?

General Discussion
#16

I am putting two recoveries after the use of Dexamethasone. I think there is some potential and hope in Dexamethasone treatment.

steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/585761-finasteride-induced-serious-problems.html

Did you read it back? The user robbocopp replied to you.

realize this is an old thread - if you’re still checking it - but, I too have problems with finasteride… big ones… I wrote about it and argued against its use other than for prostate protection …

I had “similar” problems - but not as drastic.

I “cured” (harder erections, significantly increased sperm production and higher testosterone levels) my own using

a.) t4 at full replacement dosage …in my case 150mcg-200mcg/s day – this took me some of the way back, better erections and better sperm production (250testosterone levels before and 400after) … BUT - during finasteride use I developed HYPOTHYROIDISM (not saying it is DIRECTLY connected to but, damn it WHAT a coincidence at 34 !!) so perhaps this is why the t4 helped.

and for a completely UNKNOWN reason (not one I can explain medically)

b.) after an injury I took Dexamethasone - ONLY for 5 days - but, once I stopped, within a week my erections were GREAT and after retesting my testosterone levels were great (700)… I started growing again naturally, and felt great…

Cannot explain it … but, this is my experience

Is it possible after fin/sp use our immune system is attacking us?
did you try Dexamethasone? if yes could you give some updates?

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user cytochrome
Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:46 am

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1630&p=17147&hilit=I+took+propecia+for+a+long+time+5+years+#p17147

interestingly both above users saw good effects after stopping DM, few weeks after.

cytochrome got sides again when he used fin again. His last post was on Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:52 p viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2261&p=28676#p28676

we don’t know how is doing now.

Now see pubmed study, vasectomy cuases anti-body formation and that it got treated with DM
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7095171

Sperm-agglutinating and -immobilizing antibody formation following vasectomy prevented with dexamethasone in cynomolgus monkeys.
Curtis GL, Ryan WL, Lacy SS.
Abstract
Cynomolgus monkeys (Macaca fascicularis) were treated with 1.5 mg/kg dexamethasone (DEX) before (4 to 2 days) and after (0, 2, 4, and 7 days) vasectomy. Of the four monkeys treated with DEX, only one developed sperm antibody as measured by sperm-agglutinating and sperm-immobilizing assays. All six of the vasectomized monkeys not given DEX developed both agglutinating and immobilizing sperm antibodies. In this study, DEX given before and after vasectomy blocked sperm-agglutinating and -immobilizing antibody formation. We conclude that the major antigenic exposure to sperm responsible for sperm-agglutinating and -immobilizing antibody comes at the time of vasectomy.

Maybe Fin/ SP caused injury to our testicles or prostate to disturb immune system.
Some members already reported blood in their semen or yellowish semen which clearly indicates injury in that area.

#17

Plus ihatepropecia is still doing very well after using it too so that’s 3.

However, i don’t think your study tells us much at all in relation to PFS? and yellow semen doesn’t give a clue to injury, yellow semen = infection.

#18

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=dexamethasone%20sarm

Effects of a novel selective androgen receptor modulator on dexamethasone-induced and hypogonadism-induced muscle atrophy.
Jones A, Hwang DJ, Narayanan R, Miller DD, Dalton JT.
Source
Division of Pharmaceutics, College of Pharmacy, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA.
Abstract
Glucocorticoids are the most widely used antiinflammatory drugs in the world. However, prolonged use of glucocorticoids results in undesirable side effects such as muscle wasting, osteoporosis, and diabetes. Skeletal muscle wasting, which currently has no approved therapy, is a debilitating condition resulting from either reduced muscle protein synthesis or increased degradation. The imbalance in protein synthesis could occur from increased expression and function of muscle-specific ubiquitin ligases, muscle atrophy F-box (MAFbx)/atrogin-1 and muscle ring finger 1 (MuRF1), or decreased function of the IGF-I and phosphatidylinositol-3 kinase/Akt kinase pathways. We examined the effects of a nonsteroidal tissue selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM) and testosterone on glucocorticoid-induced muscle atrophy and castration-induced muscle atrophy. The SARM and testosterone propionate blocked the dexamethasone-induced dephosphorylation of Akt and other proteins involved in protein synthesis, including Forkhead box O (FoxO). Dexamethasone caused a significant up-regulation in the expression of ubiquitin ligases, but testosterone propionate and SARM administration blocked this effect by phosphorylating FoxO. Castration induced rapid myopathy of the levator ani muscle, accompanied by up-regulation of MAFbx and MuRF1 and down-regulation of IGF-I, all of which was attenuated by a SARM. The results suggest that levator ani atrophy caused by hypogonadism may be the result of loss of IGF-I stimulation, whereas that caused by glucocorticoid treatment relies almost solely on up-regulation of MAFbx and MuRF1. Our studies provide the first evidence that glucocorticoid- and hypogonadism-induced muscle atrophy are mediated by distinct but overlapping mechanisms and that SARMs may provide a more effective and selective pharmacological approach to prevent glucocorticoid-induced muscle loss than steroidal androgen therapy.

#19

?

#20

that DM is not safe, before going on it do more research.
And that I can not say any thing about recoveries from the use of DM, unless we contact these guys and see how they are feeling now.

#21

Mew – Although people with vasectomies didn’t take a 5AR inhibitor, they are suffering from similar side effects. You cannot just simply throw the theory away because none of us had vasectomies. Auto immune diseases effect a wide range of people from all different backgrounds.

spstricken – Good research my friend. I agree with you 150% that we are suffering from an auto immune disease. I came by the conclusion by seeing in my own strict diet how I have almost allergic reactions in my penis to certain foods. It’s pretty obvious to me that when I eat certain things, other bad things happen.

You are right that peyroines can be caused by an auto immune disorder. Sleep problems, brain fog, hearing loss, and body fatigue are other symptoms of having an auto immune disorder. However, there are many problems that cause the same side effects so I know that really won’t prove anything to anyone.

#22

yes this proves why men and women are similar in this problem.

#23

bryce54 there some differences though.

1-All vasectomized people have straight below normal TT level, whereas in our case many of us have above normal TT level. This is what I have found so far. I have not seen any one who got vasectomy and has problem despite with normal TT level or above normal.

2-Many websites describe vasectomy syndrome as a result of autoimmune due to sperms (these all websites don’t give the study or research). According to these websites (mens-hormonal-health.com/cause-of-low-testosterone.html) when sperms are contained they become foriengn objects to the body and auto immune system starts attacking their own sperms and destroy testicles as well.So it is primary hypogonadism in this case.

3-interstingly for some of these males TRT is not working and they have almost the same issues as we are having on this forum after using TRT.Again because of Autoimmune? Another intesting thing is their low FSH and LH although they look primary by all accounts.I don’t know why? in case of primay hypogonadism FSH and LH are many timse the normal values.

This autoimmune b/c of sperms seprate us (fin users males and females) and vasectomized people. Our auto immune maybe is because of DHT after using 5ARIs . that is the only thing which put males and females or trans sexuales in the same basket.
So to summ it up.
we used 5 ARis our DHT went to ground
we stopped it and DHT returns we feel well for couple of weeks
our Auto immune systems sees DHT and kicks in and as time goes by we feel worse and worse.

This is just a theory.

#24

Doesn’t dexamethasone provide the perfect experimental treatment for this theory?

#25

yes it does but we should know the root cause for persistant inflammantion. I think of two causes

1-Damage to our CNS or selective MS. There is a good theroy in our forum just search it.
2-general cellular damage due to appoptosis caused by 5ARi use.

The Effect of 5 {alpha}-Reductase Inhibitors on Erectile Function – Canguven and Burnett 29 (5): 514 – Journal of Andrology
Four weeks later, blood samples were obtained for the determination of serum T and DHT levels, and penile tissues were taken for scanning electron microscopy. The T and DHT levels in castrated rats and the DHT level in finasteride-treated groups were significantly lower than those in the control group. In the castrated animals, there was a high degree of fibrosis in the corpus cavernosum with irregularly arranged collagenous fibers and a marked decrease in smooth muscle fibers, while in the DHT-inhibited group (finasteride-treated), the corpus cavernosum comprised a substantial amount of thick and irregularly arranged collagenous fibers, but the degree of fibrosis was less than that of the castration group (Shen et al, 2000)

That is why I have been asking members here

to go for tests to detect Autoimmun ( ANA, ESR etc. I don’t know if there are more accurate tests maybe some body can help use here)
to go for biopsy to find if there are any scar tissues. People are scared of biopys it is not painfuil. I got it done on my stomach no problem no pain.

It is very important we find whether we have autoimmune and inflmmantion both or just the inflammation only.

#26

Can it simply be lack of T, which is involved in cellular repairs?

#27

some pfs sufferers have above normal T so you are wrong.

#28

we have been discussing here that more alpha males are suffering more. Now I think there is some weight in our assumption.

quote from dontfixit.org/

Research has shown that a sperm count taken prior to vasectomy is a good indicator of the likelihood of this autoimmune response; the higher the sperm count, the more likely a man will become autoimmune after vasectomy.

I think you guys should read it. One reason that comes to my mind is that maybe maybe 5ARi caused some rupture in our epididymis or efferent duct?
Please read at dontfixit.org/
But that’s not all. When the rupturing occurs, sperm cells enter the blood stream, where they were not naturally intended to be. As a matter of fact, nature makes a very specific point of keeping sperm cells out of the blood stream, because sperm cells have very strong enzymes on their surfaces and only half a DNA strand. What does the body think is happening? The immune system is sent on full alert to fight off a perceived infection of millions of invading cells per day, and the body becomes “autoimmune”, i.e. the body goes to war on itself. Again from Campbell’s Urology: “Vasectomy results in violation of the blood-testis barrier producing detectable levels of serum antisperm antibodies in 60 to 80 per cent of men….” Once this reaction starts, it is nearly impossible to stop, even with a vasectomy reversal

Again if this the reason then my other assumption that we men and women suffer to gather will be proved wrong. I dont know I will keep searching untill God willingly I find the reason behind this all.

#29

Some interesting stuff your bringing out here SP but what have vasectomy’s got to do with us?

#30

autoimmune/inflammation and what else? I am also trying to figure out if vasectomized match with us 100%. They have a lot of similarities.

#31

I can’t even understand what you’re saying in that post.

#32

again vasectomized people have got hypothyroid just like us, pointing to autoimmune.

medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Autoimmune-issues-of-Vasectomy/show/225564

My vision has also gotten worse and I am becoming very forgetful. I have also begun to shake, my heart pound and I have pain in my eyes and vision problems (vibrating, pulsating). My last blood tests and a Thyroid Uptake test showed that I am now hyperthyroid.

#33

This is just conjecture. Comparing a man who underwent a small surgical procedure vs inhibiting 5AR2/hormones/neurosteroids and androgen deprivation body-wide is comparing apples to oranges. They are not even in the same ballpark.

Personally, I don’t believe everything I read online and neither should you, especially when its unrelated to Finasteride use.

Completely unrelated symptoms from a simple surgical procedure likely points to other problems with the individual which were either present beforehand or could be placebo/psychological. Trying to connect dots based on anecdotal anonymous reports from completely unrelated sample groups will likely yield little, if any insights other than further confounding the issue.

SP, you talked about HYPOthyroidism. This quote is for HYPERthyroidism. BIG difference.

Most guys on this site if they have thyroid issues, often have HYPOthyroidism (elevated TSH, or hashimoto’s). The only possible speculation I can see with regards to autoimmune involvement and the thyroid, is the fact that hashimoto’s is an auto-immune disease… but only a minority of men on this site have reported it, and it’s possible they have may been carriers before their Finasteride use. Then again, Finasteride could have exacerbated a thyroid condition, as there are men (self included) who noted increased TSH values while on Finasteride.

#34

[quote="MewThis is just conjecture. Comparing a man who underwent a small surgical procedure vs inhibiting 5AR2/hormones/neurosteroids and androgen deprivation body-wide is comparing apples to oranges. They are not even in the same ballpark.[/quote]
thanks Mew. It is true we have underwent adrogen deprivation bodywide. But I still think there is something in common. Alot of vasectomized people’s complaints/symptoms match 100%.This is can not be coincidence. These many people can not be wrong. I still think the common thing is Auto immune disorder or anti-bodies. Maybe maybe there is some link between anti-sperm anti bodies and DHT. who knows?The pattern of sides is so similar that it can not be ignored.Just like us some of them developed sides from within 15 days of vasectomy to 10 years after vasectomy and then gradually got worse over time.
I am thinking 5 ARIs have caused our bodies to develop anti-DHT anti bodies or Anti-testosterone anti bodies or maybe anti thyroid anti bodies. I know it looks far fetched ideas but hold on and look at
ehealthme.com/ds/finasteride/anti-erythropoietin+antibody+positive

On Jul, 30, 2011: 2,646 people reported to have side effects when taking Finasteride. Among them, 9 people (0.34%) have Anti-erythropoietin Antibody Positive.

I think this is the reason many including myself have Anaemia now.
also note Top conditions involved for these people * :
Myelodysplastic syndrome
Anaemia nos
Anaemia

And yes there are anti DHT and anti testosterone anti bodies for sale I don’t how they were developed? Maybe these sellers can help us in diagnosing anti bodies in our systems.
biocompare.com/ProductListings/3194/Dihydrotestosterone-DHT.html?types=6-77580&sb=true

#35

i started taking proscar 12 years ago. 1 year later i was diagnosed with an extremely rare auto immune disease called dermatomyositis. i never put the two together until finding this forum. i stopped taking proscar in december 2010. i am still battling the dermatomyositis which basically destroyed my life.