An idea from my endocrinologist...

General Discussion
#1

I went to the endocrinologist today who was really interested in the propecia side effects. He recommended that we look for a common link that made us susceptible to these side effects. I think every member should list his heritage, along with possible predisposing factors. That way we can see if a certain ethnicity is more susceptible than another. This is the cutting edge of medicine… finding out how medicines effect ethnicities differently.

Here’s my info:
Nationality:
German 50%
British 25%
French 12.5%
Irish 12.5%

Symptoms:
shaky hands/wet palms
anxiety
tinnitus
brain fog
low libido
blurry vision

#2

The issues involved in terms of the genetics of potential predisposing hormonal levels are FAR too complex for anything like this and the problems of propecia and finasteride are by no means just down to genetics or predisposing factors alone.

Finasteride will probably cause problems for many men even if they are not predisposed to such problems, that is because it is effectively an endocrine poison.

People given radiotherapy or chemotherapy often have side effects, side effects due to the drugs themselves- not any predisposing factor. Likewise Anthrax and cyanide can kill people and you do not have to be predisposed in any way at all. Just to add a touch of humor;

You could be eaten by a shark or burnt alive and you would not need to be predisposed genetically in any way for that to happen, you’d just have to be predisposed to bad luck lol.

I believe that predisposition maybe a factor for many men, I believe that it will often relate to low normal levels of sex steroids that predisposes men to this poison. If you believe that propecia size doses can also cause adrenal or thyroid problems then, the same logic of predisposition could apply on that front as well. But in terms of how people are predisposed, what percentage are predisposed etc….you are chasing rainbows and will not find your answer, at least not in this way and this posting…

If we had VERY detailed baseline pathology levels taken from a large number of propecia users prior to propecia use, then we might have something. But we are HIGHLY unlikely to get that because no one who is aware and enlightened about the nature of propecia and finasteride is going to want to willingly be a guinea pig- of which you would need thousands. The one thing you cannot get off of almost all the people who arrive here is VERY detailed baseline pathology, because people generally and naturally take an interest in endocrinology once they have a problem- not before. And therein lies the problem and sods law.

Your doctor has come up with the playdo idea of genetics and the playdo of medicine.

I would suggest that however nice and well intentioned your doctor might be, he would better serve his patients by looking to understand the medicine involved instead of coming up with grand visions that do not require his input.

P.S

I can understand why you want to post and try and gain insight etc, that is understandable, I just think that your doctor could have helped you more than just sending you off on a wild goose chase.

#3

We had a lengthy discussion, and he was great. He actually recommends I do some sort of scientific study on this. Why don’t you just post your info and let us see if a certain nationality is predisposed? Just an idea, hypo.

Much like African Americans are more susceptible to sickle cell anemia and caucasions to cystic fibrosis, or Askenazi Jews to a host of diseases, let’s just see if there’s any correlation to the side effects we are experiencing and nationality. Along with different nationalities comes different enzymes (be it amount or even their presence). Just look at the number of differences in liver P450 enzymes across ethnicities. Who cares if it’s a dead end? It’s worth a look.

#4

Suggesting that his patient goes and does a medical scientific study is simply bizarre in the extreme. What makes him think that you are in a position to do some large medical study, I mean without the medical education/training, without the patients and without the resources to actually do what he is suggesting?

The above maybe legitimate focus for the condition mentioned, one that is of a genetic nature but that does not mean to say it is legitimate focus for these problems. In fact it is bizarre to think that it is.

If you want to focus on potential predisposition to finasteride’s effects and focus still further on genetics, you would need/be best placed to evaluate the genetics of androgens. How you are going to conduct genetic studies without the required medical training and resources is beyond me.

Because I see this for what it is, an exercise in futility.

For a start off like most people I do not know my exact genetics make-up and even if I did what you are choosing to look at is so limited and focused without reason that it just doesn’t make sense.

I understand that you are trying to find answers, I get that completely. But I do not think this is going to help do that- not remotely.

I am only one person though and I certainly am not telling you what to do, it isn’t my place to do that and I wouldn’t want to do that….so I’ll leave you to it.

#5

Sorry brainfogged but I gotta agree with Hypo on this one… not only do I not know the percentages of my background/heritage, but I don’t see how ti would be possible to correlate all of this without a large-scale (ie, thousands) of people participating, with a control for variables and other scientific requirements.

Regardless, I’ll keep my eyes peeled for any studies that mention ethnicity as a factor in Finasteride usage… cheers.

#6

Fair enough, but you do agree that some nationalities/ethnicities are more subject to adverse reactions, right? Maybe if we narrowed the scope of it. I like where Boston is going with his post on the side effects thread titled “is everybody SKINNY who is on this site?” I think it would be sweet if we could find out who, if anyone, is predisposed to these side effects.

#7

I agree with mew and hypo. But what about skippyb’s post how’s your hair? He was wondering if we all had a lot of hair before we started Propecia. That our DHT was already low and we really shouldn’t have been on Propecia. Did every one here have a lot of hair before starting Propecia?

On that post people started answering a different question then the one he asked.

#8

I agree with Hypo, is very difficult to link our etnicity with this problem. I remember that there was a survey at the old yahoo group on the races more affected bythis shit. On those respondents caucasians were the larger ethnic group, there were few asians, latins or blacks. If you were on the old yahoo group you could see that many sufferers came from first world countries (Western Europe, Australia, North America), but I think that this happened because rich populations on rich nations can afford the vanity to consume pharmaceuticals for something as trivial as hairloss. Go to the developing world and most men would accept their baldness and would consider a stupid thing to spend valuable money in cosmetic procedures (damn, they were right). My two cents.

#9

i have my own theory i think we are all being effected by this drug possibly because we are hornier then most men at least i know i am. Maybe thats are link it has a greater effect on men with higher levels of Testostirone.

#10

i have my own theory i think we are all being effected by this drug possibly because we are hornier then most men at least i know i am. Maybe thats are link it has a greater effect on men with higher levels of Testostirone.

#11

Hey Voice, what a coincidence! I had the same thinking a couple of days ago. On my part I had a very high libido before this shit happened, higher than most guys I know. Maybe a little disruption in guys like us have a greater impact…

#12

I am sorry to say i was not a very horny guy even b4 propecia, and i am kind of skinny so i was probably not a very high testosterone guy to begin with. I was however a person with a good amount of hair and still have so only its abit thin and brittle now.

If allowed to speculate on theories to why this is happening, i would go with:

I read a study somewhere stating that it was concluded that the way lowering systematic DHT impacted the prostate size (shrinking) was by cellular death. Much like any cancer drug just in a different way. I allways feelt my ejaculations was abit numb on propecia and still do. i still think this is due to a numb / smaller prostate. I was also one of those unfortenate 2% (bs) who experienced the testicular pain while on propecia (alltho it was present only from time to time). Its my specualtion that this pain is / was also caused by cellular death. This would also explain the atrophy of the testicles i have experienced. Now, while on propecia i did not feel really bad cause the Testosterone was probably really high since not beeing converted to dht, and in my case not much E either since i am very skinny with low body fat (fat as i understand it converts more estrogen in the male body). Atleast not enough E to give me Gyno etc. However once i stopped propecia all hell broke loose and was feeling really bad as (speculating again) my testicles were not anymore capable of producing all the testosterone needed at this point (now that dht was allowed in my system again there were not enough T left after converting to dht). With this new information my body called upon the adrenals (i think adrenals stand for like 5% T in the body normally) to produce more T as the testicles were not doing a good enough job, hence my lower backpain and really low stress level at this point in time. I think this theory in general explain for ppls vast variety of symptoms from prostate, testicle to adrenal even thyroid as adrenals and thyroid as i understand work very close together. I guess some of us could also be experiencing liver / toxic issues from having to deal with propecia.

Or maybe we convert to high a procentage of T into DHT and the body thinks we have all the T we need since normal or high DHT in bloodstream. This could be caused of a greater 5ar activity from beeing supressed b4 it has now raised its level alot. I think there are alot of bodily functions that work this way.

Thats my 2 cents for theories but wat is important is however the cure and on this i stand abit dumbfounded, maybe trt for me or maybe just time is needed to heal. I myself do feel alot better than i did a few month after quitting. Alltho i am not near recovered at this point.

regards

Björn

#13

do you know what sucks is i dont even think i m going bald i think my hair doesnt seem to be receeding anymore. Maybe we have a higher side effects cause we were never meant to take the drug.

#14

The thing is that men who are not going bald have as much dht as the guys going bald, so it would affects yr hormones in the same way weather u were going bold or not. The difference is their hair follicles can take the beating while the balding guys follicles cant. Nothing about hormones is set in stone cause all ppl react differently to treatments but this is however the theory most scientist now belive to be the true.