About ketogenesis and fat adaptation

Therapeutic Efforts Supplements & Lifestyle
#5

@dae1 Got it: Sirtuins are the demethylation proteins.

From wikipedia: Sirtuins are a class of proteins that possess either mono-ADP-ribosyltransferase, or deacylase activity, including deacetylase, desuccinylase, demalonylase, demyristoylase and depalmitoylase activity.

From another source: Sirtuins have been found to regulate cellular processes such as DNA transcription, aging, apoptosis, inflammation, immune response and reaction to caloric restriction. They can also control circadian clocks and mitochondrial biogenesis.

How to Increase Sirtuins

  • Glucose restriction extends the lifespan of human fibroblasts because of increased NAD+ and sirtuin activity [xxxviii]. Inhibiting insulin shuttles SIRT1 out of the cell’s nucleus into the cytoplasm. Cancers use primarily glucose and glutamine for fuel with the exception of some ketones in rare cases.
  • Caloric restriction and fasting increase SIRT3 and deacetylate many mitochondrial proteins [xxxix]. Reduction of calorie intake without causing malnutrition is the only known intervention that increases the lifespan of many species including primates[xl][xli]. It’s thought that these effects in longevity require SIRT1[xlii].
  • Activating AMPK elevates NAD+ levels, leading to increased SIRT1 activity[xliii]. AMPK is the fuel sensor that mobilizes the body’s energy stores such as fat.
  • Ketosis and ketone bodies like beta-hydroxybutyrate promote sirtuin activity. SIRT3 deficient mice can’t produce normal levels of ketones while fasting[xliv]. However, a ketogenic diet increases brown fat and improves mitochondrial function but lowers SIRT3 in mice[xlv]. This may be due to the signaling of mTOR by a nutrient-dense diet. Natural ways of caloric restriction and fasting are still the best ways of signaling energy deprivation which promotes longevity. In an everyday context, a low carb diet is still pro-sirtuin to a certain extent because of the low levels of insulin and glucose.
  • Exercise has anti-inflammatory effects and it increases SIRT1 [xlvi]. The long-term benefits of exercise are even thought to be regulated by SIRT1.
  • Cyclic-AMP pathway activates SIRT1 very rapidly to promote fatty acid oxidation independent of NAD+[xlvii]. CAMP is linked with AMPK which gets activated under high energy demands while being energy deprived. This can be accomplished with cold exposure and high-intensity training or exercising in a glycogen depleted state.
  • Heat exposure and saunas increase NAD+ levels which promote SIRT1 as well[xlviii]. Sweating, cardio, yoga, or infrared saunas will probably have a similar effect on activating heat shock proteins.
  • Chronic oxidative stress and DNA damage depletes NAD+ levels and decreases sirtuin activity. This will then disrupt DNA repair and impair mitochondrial functioning. That’s why you want to keep stressors acute and followed by recovery.
  • Melatonin can activate sirtuins and has anti-aging effects [xlix]. It’s also the main sleep hormone and a powerful antioxidant that helps the brain get more recovery from deeper stages of sleep.
  • Sirtuins also affect the circadian clocks so keeping a consistent circadian rhythm is incredibly important for longevity . NAD+ is under circadian control and when you’re misaligned you’ll have less energy and lower SIRT1 and SIRT3 activity[l]

Well Ok. Looks like I had this covered already. Anyway, it just shows the approach I’m suggesting in this thread has some foundation.
Please do compare with what people have done in the success stories. You’ll find similarities.

Source article: https://siimland.com/how-to-increase-sirtuins-for-longevity/

Food sources of Sirtuins: https://www.inner-light-in.com/2015/05/top-ten-sirtuin-foods-for-good-health/

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#6

Ozeph, how much have your recovered from PFS? 90%?

#7

More than 90%

I was disabled, unable to work or drive or even climb two flights of stairs. Sex drive was zero, I had lost morning erections and sensitivity.

The horrible anxiety, the one I thought I would have to kill myself if I had to live with that all the time: it’s gone ! And so is depression and brain fog…

Now everything is back to normal except I still have some insomnia. I keep it under control with drugs and herbs but I still have a messed up day once in a while due to lack of sleep.

I’ve also tried eating junk food instead of my diet and insomnia becomes slightly worst but no other symptoms came back. I will redouble my efforts along the above mentioned lines and I’m pretty sure I can get all of this behind me at one point. It may takes years, but as long as I get there I’m happy.

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#8

Here is a video explaining some of that stuff. I don’t know if in that specific video he mentions aging is mostly epigenetic damage and not only telomeres shortening, but what he talks about, plus the 2 articles mentioned above, is not specifically about aging but mostly about repairing epigenetic damage. (and it appears what we have is epigenetic damage…)

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#9

Keto is the fad. Twenty or so years ago it was the opposite. I am sure that if you went to the propecia boards that existed 15 to 20 years ago, guys would be advocating lowfat/grazing type of diets to treat PFS. I think keto or carnivore or paleo or primal can help people with lots of things, but curing PFS or another systemic disorder is silly.

#10

@Crossroads do you think you could fill the survey out? It allows you to stop and save progress in case you can’t give it a go all at once. Thank you!

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#11

It’s not only eating zero carbs. You forgot staying hungry, fasting, exercising, getting out of breath, weight lifting, cold showers and saunas, strict circadian rhythm regularity and you forgot to mention extending life, curing diabetes as well as reducing epigenetic damage, preventing arthritis, strokes, heart attacks and cancer.
(I’m taking the opportunity to list them all.)

If you’re going to be dismissive and make abstraction of the last 20 years of scientific discoveries, which is your right, you might as well be thorough.

(to the admin: I didn’t post my references for the first paragraph as I’m suggesting to dismiss it all. If some claims end up being false, they should be dismissed)

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#12

@Ozeph Yes, the things you mentioned are all good side effects for many people on the keto diet or any other diet that may work for them.

I myself HAVE TRIED all the things you mention. I still have PFS. I still have the problems I had 22 years ago.

My point is that a diet is NOT going to CURE a neurosteroid imbalance that was caused by chemicals taken in the form of drugs that affect the entire human physiology.

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#13

How long did you try the diet?

#14

Since last summer. I have also done other diet for several months to several years. Diets don’t work for PFS–it just doesn’t make sense. But I am glad that I lost weight with some of the diets and not happy that I gained weight and other problems with others!

#15

And when did you stop the keto diet?

#16

My topic here is about the difference between ketogenesis and fat adaptation. Diet is just the beginning.

Ultimately, diet, exercise and fasting (especially fasting) did and does cure some. It did make most of my symptoms disappear for 1 1/2 year now. This is not a blanket statement, I didn’t say it will cure all of us.

When you say: diet is NOT going to CURE a neurosteroid imbalance that was caused by chemicals taken in the form of drugs that affect the entire human physiology, that’s a blanket statement. You’re saying it won’t for everyone. That’s not true, beside me I know others for which diet has been of immense help.

Plus my point for this thread is that fat adaptation makes fasting easier, and fasting CAN cure a neurosteroid imbalance. Again, not a blanket statement. It will not for everyone.
Some people cure cancers with fasting. Others don’t.

So I understand the tricks I mentioned didn’t help you, I never said it would help everyone, but please be considerate of those it may help. Some of them may not try because of comments like yours or dae1.

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#17

Here’s another video of Sinclair talking about gene demehylation. If I understand what’s being said and pfs correctly (and I probably don’t, but eh !), he’s talking about something that could get us back to where we were before taking fin.( skip to around 25:00 minutes in the video, or watch it all to hear new words you never heard before !)

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#18

Ketogenic/carnivore diet causes Diabetis. Red meat, but also chicken, milk, cheese causes diabetis, not carbohydrates or sugar.
Also the Dutch Diabetic foundation warns for meat, chicken and diary

See the docu on Netflix: What the Health from Kip Anderson

#19

Why have people reversed Type 2 diabetes on low carb diets then?
I wasn’t trying to be argumentative @smphead I’m genuinely curious.

#20

I agree with @Chapman. Why some people have cured their diabetes with carnivore / ketogenic diet ?

And why people eating too much sugar gets diabetes ? And it’s a genuine question, not a sarcasm. I’ve read the result of a test conducted around 1950 where the doctor was giving a 96% calories from carbohydrate, up to eating straight bowlful of white sugar and drinking glucose and people were losing weight. I can’t imagine (again no sarcasm) what this did to their insulin and insulin resistance. Did they adapt ?

My conclusion from this experiment was that a near 100% simple carbohydrate diet had similar results to a near 100% fat diet. I can’t remember the conclusion about diabetes but both are elimination diets.

For it’s practicality, high fat / carnivore diet with some leafy greens, only water for drink and less than 20 gr of complex carbohydrate just before sleep (to reduce cortisol by elevating insulin) is way easier and provides more nutriments, minerals and vitamins than an almost pure sugar diet or a standard ketogenic diet.
(ketogenic diets requires calculation and lots of time cooking. You need to search everything and it’s not as effective as an elimination diet.)

What are your sources on this ? I would like to learn more. (I don’t have Netflix. It’s dangerous for my type of personality… Lol !)

#21

My source is indeed the documentary. In this documentary, among other things, Dr. Neal Barnard an expert in the field of diabetes explains that animal fats are the main problem for diabetis. It’s to complex for me to summarize his words in Englisch. He wrote a book how to reverse diabetis by a vegetarian lifestyle.

Also it’s not a secret that meat is full of saturated fat, a huge source for maintaining diabetis. Besides that, meat is full of toxines which give you within minutes after eating inflammation which peralize your arteries.

#22

Ah ! Ideas and concept. If our ideas are in harmony with reality, we call it knowledge, if the concepts are not in harmony with reality, we call it misinformation or dillusion.

According to the ideas and concept in my mind, human fat (which is animal saturated fat) is very bad for diabetes. I would agree that a vegetarian diet can help diabetic people, if they don’t eat bananas, orange juice and sugar all the time. The rest of what you’re saying goes against all I’ve read on diabetes, inflammation and cholesterol in arteries.
However, I read somewhere that 99.5% of pesticides we eat in plant food comes from the plant themselves, as they cannot run away from predators. Chemicals are their only defense. A small percentage of those pesticides were studied and about half can give people cancer (in high concentration).

Some of what you’re saying is beyond my comprehension at the moment, however, I should point out that Inuits (Esquimos) who eat only meat don’t develop diabetes type II. They have impaired glucose tolerance though, which is understandable if they didn’t have any for many generations, and if given sugar they may (or may not) develop diabetes. It appears mixing carbs, protein and fat is a bad idea, especially carbs and fat.
I don’t believe saturated fat is bad if taken without carbs nor do I believe meat is full of toxins (or have more toxins than plants).
The human body is made of meat and saturated fat. When we fast, we “eat” some of that fat and meat. Are we toxic as well ? Will fat burning from fasting develop diabetes ?
With all due respect, I think your statement is taken out of context and if I looked at the source material I could understand more how this doctor can be a diabetes expert without saying the opposite of all other diabetes experts.

However, I’m not diabetic. I have pfs. The diet and lifestyle I follow did make 90% of the neurological symptoms disappear in a week and I believe this is due to the elimination of carbs and allergens in plants, not the meat and animal fat. Physical symptoms went away in the next few months and I believe this is due to the diet (and nothing else, before I was too weak to do exercise). After that I started doing exercise and kept the diet plus taking supplements, the sexual symptoms slowly went away, 9-12 months after the beginning of the diet.

I eat 100-150 gr of saturated fat a day, 300-500 gr of meat a day, some leafy greens and less than 20 gr of carbs (in the form of rolled oat) just before bed.
My blood sugar is lower than before (I had it tested three times), I stopped having hypoglycemia a week in the diet and my HDL/LDL ratio is 2 (healthy is 1-4, dangerous is above 4) so cholesterol and heart attacks are not a problem, nor is diabetes.
I’m happy with the results of my diet and lifestyle as a way to alleviate the symptoms of pfs.

I will check the studies of Dr. Neal Barnard as I’m always open to new information and knowledge but I will not change my diet and lifestyle as for now it’s working for me. I can be wrong for the rest of my conclusions but the truth is, I’m not so interested in understanding why this is worked for me. I just know it did.

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#23

I think it is okay if we use diets like keto for healing. I know that healing is a holistic thing of mind body and spirit. Healing is not the same as a cure. We may not have a cure for PFS in our lifetimes, but we can work at our own healing, and so I understand why @Ozeph is so gung ho for the diet and lifestyle plan he is saying works for him.

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#24

I have this rational and although it might be wrong, that’s what I believe in:

Most drugs do dose dependent damage to a specific organ or set of organs. The liver is the most common target of drug induced damage.

In our case, pfs does not seem to be systematically dose dependent, some took only one pill and crashed right away, others like me took it for 20 years and a great number seem to not ever develop symptoms; and it does not seem to do damage to a specific organ or set of organs, it varies from cases to cases. To me, it looks like it’s not so much the drug itself but how our body reacts to it.

Than some of us get 2-4 weeks of no symptoms before crashing. Again, this is not dose dependent as the dose is now zero, but it rather seems to be how the body reacts to the changes, in the absence of 5-alpha reductase.

One more point, we all have different symptoms, most within a common range of symptoms and some more rare or unique. This also points out to our individual make up and the specific modifications the body chooses to do in absence of 5-alpha reductase.

Last point, we’re not all here for the same drug. Some are even here for doing overly drastic lifestyle changes, not for taking a drug. We all have most of our symptoms within a common range of symptoms although it varies somewhat depending on what brought us here.

In my opinion, it all points out to something our body has done to itself: Epigenetics fits the description.
Although there are outside causes that provoke the body, it’s the body that alters it’s epigenetic status, and it can reverse it. I believe this and some scientists do too, hence the articles I posted on this thread.

Sirtuin proteins seems to be the key and, erreta: they do not demehylate genes but they seem to repair DNA and epigenetic damage (likedoing histone de-acetylation) and seem to act in consort with the demethylation enzyme that takes out the gene suppressing methyl groups, when the body considers it should no longer be suppressed (aka by comparing to our original genome).
BHB, Butyrate, diets and pro-biotics that produce butyrate composites, fasting, out of breath exercise, weight lifting, cold shower and hot saunas are believed, again according to the posted researches, to increase and activate sirtuin proteins.

So that’s my understanding and rational of the group of diseases we are suffering from. It may not be complete or even correct, but it’s what I base my approach on. So far so good for me and I know others who have had success using their own version of a similar process.

It’s not important for me to change people’s mind. As a matter of fact, I believe it’s every individual’s choice to change whatever he wants in his mind. But it’s important to me to share my experience, experiments and results so that people can use them as extra elements to make an educated choice on what path they will choose. It is a serious, life altering disease after all.

I wish you all the best !

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