5arvic's story

Member Stories
#1

  1. Where are you from (country)?
    US

  2. How did you find this forum (Google search – if so, what search terms? Via link from a forum or website – if so, what page? Other?)
    Google

  3. What is your current age, height, weight?
    44, 6’3", 195lbs

  4. Do you excercise regularly? If so, what type of excercise?
    Sort of. Started weights again, 3x per week, jogging 2x per week.

  5. What type of diet do you eat (vegetarian, meat eater, raw, fast-food/organic healthy)?
    No gluten diet. Now following paleo for the most part.

  6. Why did you take Finasteride (hair loss, BPH, other)?
    Propecia for hair loss.

  7. For how long did you take Finasteride (weeks/months/years)?
    6.5 years

  8. How old were you, and WHEN (date) did you start Finasteride?
    33, 2003

  9. How old were you when you quit, and WHEN (date) did you quit?
    39, 2010

  10. How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)?
    cold turkey

  11. What type of Finasteride did you use – Propecia, Proscar, Fincar or other generic?
    Propecia

  12. What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?
    1mg/day

  13. How long into your use of Finasteride did you notice the onset of side effects?
    In hindsight the sexual sides kicked in way earlier, but I really only notice towards the end of 6 years.

  14. What side effects did you experience while on the drug that have yet to resolve since discontinuation?

Put an X beside all that apply:

Sexual
[x] Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
[x] Erectile Dysfunction
[ ] Complete Impotence
[x] Loss of Morning Erections
[x] Loss of Spontaneous Erections
[x] Loss of Nocturnal Erections
[ ] Watery Ejaculate
[ ] Reduced Ejaculate
[ ] Inability to Ejaculate / Orgasm
[ ] Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
[ ] Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat
[ ] Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating
[ ] Confusion
[ ] Memory Loss / Forgetfullness
[ ] Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
[ ] Slurring of Speech
[ ] Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
[x] Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
[x] Severe Depression / Melancholy
[ ] Suicidal Thoughts

Physical
[ ] Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
[ ] Penis curvature / rotation on axis
[ ] Testicular Pain
[ ] Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
[ ] Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
[ ] Weight Gain
[ ] Gynecomastia (male breasts)
[ ] Muscle Wastage
[ ] Muscle Weakness
[ ] Joint Pain
[ ] Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
[ ] Prostate pain
[ ] Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion
[x] Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
[ ] Constipation / “Poo Pellets”
[ ] Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
[ ] Increased hair loss
[ ] Frequent urination
[ ] Lowered body temperature

[x] Other (please explain)
Insomnia, wake up at 4 AM every night

  1. What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug?
    I had really bad indigestion, the diharrhea kind. The Dr. recommended laying off any wheat products, which helped a lot. So I’m gluten free now. Started to exercise regularly again, including weights. Taking standard supplements, like B-complex, Magnesium, Fish-oil etc…

  2. If you have pre or post-Finasteride bloodtests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (pls post your test results in the “Blood Tests” section and link to them in your post)?

  3. Anything not listed in the above questions you’d like to share about your experience with Finasteride?
    After Finasteride I used Rogain for maybe 6 weeks, but noticed side effects. My head was spinning at night when trying to sleep. This time I made the connection pretty quickly and layed off Rogain. The sides resolved immediately.

  4. Tell us your story, in your own words, about your Finasteride usage and side effects experienced while on/off the drug.

I took Propercia for hairloss for 6 years straight. Then took 1/2 year break to see if I would actually still loose hair, and I did. So I went back on it. But this time I noticed low libido and difficulty getting erections. I talked to the Dr. about it who prescribed Propecia to me, but he was selling me on this drug from day one, out of his own stash btw. He said if I can still get erections then there’s no problem. But ED is not black and white. I didn’t trust him anymore and finally decided to quit Propecia. In hindsight, the lack of libido developed way earlier. When I stopped I expected any sideeffects to resolve as promised, and never looked back. Fast forward to about 4 years later. I got bad digestion over months, diharrea, and insomnia, waking up at 4 AM every night, and depression, everything felt like a chore. I saw a Dr. about the diharrea and he suggested to avoid wheat. That helped a lot. My stool is not the way it was before, but at least not liquid.

But I also still had low libido over the entire time and never felt like dating. To a point I was even avoiding women, unconsciously. Never went past the 1st date. I did not make the connection to Propecia, I just wasn’t ‘feeling it’ and thought it might be age or a I need to work out again, be more fit. I did have a lot of stress over these 4 years. 3 different jobs, twice unemployed, lost relationship, lost house … So I was writing it up to stress until I found out about PFS and everything clicked. I then found this site, read and related to the stories and felt that’s the end. Severe anxiety, suicidal thoughts, severe depression followed.

What I don’t recall having is what people here describe as crash, as in a single incident. My sides seem to show up very late. Except for low libido etc. which was unresolved all the time.

I couldn’t make sense if this was PFS or stress and in my initial panic I ran out an got a T test on my own. And it showed very low T:

T total, LC/MS 388.1 ng/dL [348.0 - 1197.0]
T free 12.61 ng/dL [5.00 - 21.00]
% free T 3.25% [ 1.50 - 4.20]

From what I understand at my age 44 I should have something in the 600’s. After the 1st week of complete panic I then started researching this site for help.

#2

Then I researched this site obsessively and the stories from CDnuts and JustQuitDut were extremely helpful. What I haven’t figured out yet is I have ‘just’ low T or low T + PFS. My understanding of PFS is that it’s an impairment of the 5ar reductase system. So not enough T gets converted to DHT which will cause more T to get aromatized into E, causing E dominance. So for me to find out I’d have to see how I react to T. If the reaction is positive initially but then reverses making me feel very bad again, then it’s probably PFS, otherwise just low T. But at this point I decided to first tackle this livestyle + diet changes + natural T boosters. I have been off wheat and basically a paleo style diet for 6 weeks already. Lost 10 lbs by now in the process. That did help my digestion a lot. I did one spontaneous 24h water fast. Too short probably. So I’m planning to do a 2 week water fast if I can. Under supervision of course. There seems to be some controversy if 2 weeks is a must or too much. I learned that your own fat is used up staring day 3 to 4. So I need to go at least a few days beyond that. I wouldn’t want my muscles to waste in the process. I also started to work out regularly again. Weights seem to be key so I’m doing 3x a week weights and 2x cardio. But I’m pretty weak at this point. Exhaust easily. But there’s some visible progress after 6 weeks into it.

I also checked with my GP to do more blood tests. She referred me to an endo for the test. I’ll post results.

My plan for now is to tackle this in 3 escalating stages, if I manage to stick with it:

  1. Natural plan a la CD nuts. water fast in Jan. Then 90 days of workout and diet and natural T boosters. Then reassess.
  2. Some PCT cycles.
  3. Clomid cycle
  4. HRT cycle

The natural test boosters are on their way already and I’ll start using them as soon as they get here. I don’t want to be on HRT for life. I hope I can restart. If I do have PFS then all of this needs to be balanced with some AI. I’m scared to death about all this but at least a plan is something under my control I can execute upon.

#3

Hey, looks like a good plan. What natural t boosters are you going to use?

#4

I have very low T caused by short term Propecia usage. I did have a crash and it was pretty nasty. It sounds like your Propecia disease came on a bit more insidiously. You may be one of the lucky ones. So far my experience with T-boosters has not been dramatic. They have done nothing on libido, very little for energy. When I start to feel okay and get back to some physical activity my body punishes me. I am going to see a hormone doc Monday. If everything is still low I am going to go ahead and try hormone replacement and see if I get a benefit.

In my case the Endo referral was a blow off. Endo’s re-test you and if your in range by even 1 point they will blow you off. Especially if you told them you think your problem is from Propecia.

#5

Hi nopecia, to be precise, the only T booster on the list is Tribulus extract. The other ones are more for libidio I think. But I’d give anything to just feel better. The list is from CDnuts reference to that boost your low T site: boost-your-low-testosterone.com .

Here they are: Muira Puama, Mucuna Pruriens, Tribulus Extract, Catuaba, Tongkat Ali and Horny Goat Weed. If anyone has experience with the provider named on that site, please share. So far I’ve injected Horny Goat and Tongkat Ali, to no effect. But that would probably be asking too much. It’ll take some time. I cycle them, only one kind per day.

I stayed away from Maca because my limited researched suggested that it has the same effect on prostate as fin. It does not affect 5ar, but the prostate. The red kind does.

examine.com/supplements/Maca/
Maca also appears to be a potent suppressor of prostate hypertrophy, with potency similar to finasteride, a synthetic drug for the treatment of enlarged prostates.

I’m considering DHEA, a precursor to T and E, as next step.

#6

I can’t believe what this poison has done to us, and to you in only 24 days. I injected this shit for 6.5 years. You’re suggesting I might be lucky because I did not have a hard crash? Any evidence on the forum for that? Right now I feel anything else but lucky. I feel dead inside.

My hopes for T boosters are not too high. I’m trying to stay positive though, giving them a shot. I understand the physical activity part. I feel very weak. Tried to do HIIT, as suggested, switching from jogging to sprints and tore something. Couldn’t run for the last 2 weeks. It’s hard to do weight lifting. When I bench press my left arm is shaking, and that with only 40 lbs weight on that arm. That said I think working out is of utmost importance and I do see some improvements in muscle. It will prepare my body better for any treatment and help burn off more of that fat, reducing E. I’m already down to 195 lbs from 210 lbs within the last 6 weeks (I’m 6’3"). So for me it’s baby steps. Learning to walk again. It sucks, but keeps me going.

I hope HRT will work for you. Please report back. It’s horrible to be in this condition. I’m so tempted to jump right into HRT just to make me (hopefully) feel better. Slowing down and trying the natural route first is really hard. I’m not sure I can stick with it but will at least wait until after my water fast. I’m scheduled for Jan.

#7

Saw an endo in the meantime. Showed him my low T test and suggested this is due to fin. I told him about all the sides I have. He thinks that fin cannot cause that. He has seen other patients with concerns about fin. If I want to raise my T levels I should go on clomid. Interestingly he shared w/ me that he himself has been on clomid for the last 25 years. Supposedly there are hardly any side effects. Then I asked him to run blood test. He wouldn’t have done that by himself. The case was already closed. It seems really hard to get any Dr. actually interested in your case, as reported by many here.

Here are the bloods, I got the list from here: finasteridesyndrome.blogspot.com … treat.html . He didn’t want to run 3 Alpha Androstenediol Glucuronide, and some others where I had prior results. That’s supposedly a better indicator of DHT, since DHT is hard to measure:

Cortisol AM [5.0 - 25.0 ug/dL] 20.7
Vitamin D, 25-HYDROXY [30 - 100 ng/mL] 18
Lutenizing Hormone (LH) [Males: 20-70 Years 1.5-9.3] 3.7
Prolactin [Male: 2.1-17.7] 9.1
Estradiol (E2) [Males,16 and over : 0-39.8pg/mL] 19
DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE [16 - 79 ng/dL] 29
Androstenedione [40 - 190 ng/dL] 151
Testosterone Total [250 - 1100 ng/dL] 293
Testosterone Free [35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL] 75.0

So according to the endo everything is in range except Vit D and Vit D deficiency is common. That seems to be true going by my own research. So he put me on Vit D3 2000IU daily.

When I first saw these results I panicked again, because total T came in 100 points below my own test. But it’s actually the same. The range is simply shifted by 100. That means I’m still in the lower 5% and 6 weeks of paleo and workout have not moved the needle a bit. He also pointed out that free T is really the only thing that matters and my free T is middle of range, for both tests.

So I have the option to go on clomid now. I read legendary’s story about clomid cycle. I might go for it after my water fast.

#8

Why these motherfucker docs dont educate themselves, why dont they follow recent news, studies, researches about the drugs that they prescribe?

So many published studies show finasteride actualy cause pfs recently, but still “its in your head” attitude. Read some shit lazy asses, dont sleep.

#9

there are lots of sides with clomid. taking that long term is terrible. you should be fine if its only for a couple of weeks.

#10

Thanks for the heads up huhohyeaok. I took your advice, did some research and came across this excellent site: peaktestosterone.com. The author confirms that short term usage is pretty safe. But long term use is questionable, with blurred vision as most common side effect.

peaktestosterone.com/Clomid_ … erone.aspx

There’s evidence that it works to jump start T for steroid abusers. I think I’ll give that a shot soon.

#11

Here’s what I think. So this is my opinion after doing internet research. I’m posting this since it might be valuable for someone with similar results. Go ahead an challenge me on my conclusions if you want.

My working assumption right now is that I only have lowT, not lowT + 5ar damage. Both conditions were induced by fin of course, but the latter I think is what most here refer to as PFS. Why would I say that? Because my E2 is at the lower range of optimal. I’d expect much higher E2 if it was PFS. I think I don’t have any visible signs of estrogen dominance either.

Again from lef.org:
lef.org/Protocols/Male-Repro … n/Page-les

Hormone
Optimal Range

DHEA-s:
350-490 μg/dL

Estradiol:
20-30 pg/mL

Total Testosterone:
700-900 ng/dL

Free Testosterone:
20-25 pg/mL

I’m not sure about their Free Testosterone range, doesn’t match with my reading. But the ideal range for E2 is 20-30 pg/mL, my reading is 19 pg/mL.

The next indicator is T/DHT ratio. It seems a good range is between 8 - 16. According to this study:

emedicine.medscape.com/article/924291-workup
In adults, the discriminatory value of the post hCG T/DHT ratio is even higher. Normal patients respond with ratios from 8-16, while patients with 5-alpha-reductase-2 deficiency exhibit T/DHT ratios from 35-84.[23]

My ratio is 293/29 ~= 10. That falls nicely into this range.

And last but not least there seems to be the magic 5 year mark for natural recovery a lot of members mentioned. In spring 2015 I’ll be off the poison for 5 years, so I’m close.

But, I might still have PFS. The only way to find out is to raise T. If the T/DHT ratio holds with higher T, then I should be fine, if it increases, meaning DHT cannot keep up, then it’s PFS.

Again, this is all my own analysis after internet research, caveat emptor.