5ar autoimmune disease?

After JustQuitDut we’ve all became a little bit allergic to the kind of posts claiming some big insights etc, but the experience i had yesterday leaves very little room for doubt. After all, forum is made to share experiences and opinions on this hell happening to us.

I already posted about very bad reaction i had from tribulus terrestris. I got heart palpitations, insomnia, more shrinkage, frequent urination etc. After half a year i mostly recovered from it.
But, couple of days ago i started using sorghum and yesterday i had very similar reaction like that from tribulus. Of course, we all know that these substances raise 5ar, so the conclusion imposes itself: my body attacks 5ar! As soon as it gets close to normal levels immune system attacks it.
Some users reported similar reaction to tribulus like mine and many have reported even another crash after creatine.
Add to that the only one study conducted (and published so far) upon pfs sufferers

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890183

which claims we have reduced levels of allopregnanolone, dht and dihydroprogesterone (all 5ar metabolites) and i have no more doubts about what the cause of this thing is.

After finasteride usage, dht coming back to normal, for some reason, had kind of traumatic effect on body which is why it thinks 5ar should be kept as low as possible. After all, wasn’t that the case for most of us- we had a week or something of super high libido, everything coming back to normal etc and then, out of nowhere- crash. Or it wasn’t ‘out of nowhere’ ? As much as i saw many of us crashed after some major stress. Body took 5ar responsible for it and we ended up here. It makes me wonder would i be here, with life totally destroyed, if i haven’t jerked of three times that fucking day…

I am very glad i have at least discovered what is killing me, even if i don’t have any treatment available. At this moment, except some long term fasting, i don’t have any idea what to do. I was using aspirin for some time, and it helped a little bit, but i got stomach bleeding after three or four days, and as much as i know every nsaid has similar side effects profile.
Maybe some natural anti inflammatory herbs + very slowly raising 5ar ?

If you have any comments/suggestions do share, this will be my ‘member page’.

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+1 for the autoimmune theory, I’ve been thinking that for a while as I have had some very clear indications of an immune response e.g. red hives all over both of my hands on the day I crashed!

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It does seem that, if this isn’t a problem with our nervous system, it is a problem with 5ar… IMO.

I don’t know enough about our immune systems to comment on whether our bodies could be attacking 5ar. The cells may have just adopted a mechanism to function (poorly) without 5ar and ignore it.

Dr. Crisler has suggested that PFS patients need supraphysiological levels of T to function properly, although that obviously didn’t work. I wonder if supraphysiological levels of 5ar could help.

“Dr. Crisler has suggested that PFS patients need supraphysiological levels of T to function properly, although that obviously didn’t work.”

This may not work for some but it worked for me when I pushed T levels into the 40’s nmol/L but you need levels of DHT around 8-10 or more. The risk from high T levels is that many patients will have blood thickening and high hematocrit which would eventually lead to a heart attack.

Well, I tried to raise 5ar but got immediate immune response until 5ar got down to where it was …

In what sense did it work for you ? You got cured from sex sides ?

Why the conclusion regarding 5ar? Maybe tribulus raises DHT too and that desensitizes further the recpetors? A dozed of other possible stories.

remember that some people got the same exact sexual and urinary sides including numbness by taking an antiandrogen (that acts on receptor and not the 5ar)

So i just got my tribulus in the mail today, and it sounds like you recommend i avoid like plague? Do we have an rough idea about the percentage of people who feel worse on tribulus on this forum?

Who are those people? And what AR competitor?

Personally, my PFS symptoms are nearly identical to the sides I experienced on the drug. I had full blown PFS symptoms after 4 pills. I then recovered and crashed to a nearly identical (but slightly less severe) state.

I wouldn’t expect AR insensitivity to cause the exact same symptom profile I experienced after a few days on a 5ar inhibitor. We also have to appreciate the fact that PFS guys have whacked out neurosteroid levels.

So either my fin sides were neurologically driven and I crashed to a similarly dysfunctional state or this is 5ar related IMO.

My field is not biology, but this looks self explanatory:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3116931/

Finasteride is also a powerful anti-androgen, in that in addition to acting on the 5ar it also acts to prevent the binding of dht to the receptor (i.e. It acts both at the extensive and intensive margin.)

Someone I know got exactly the same symptoms by using RU, another one posted here also from RU, and i have seen a case of flutamide. You might say: these are very few cases but remember very very few young men go on an anti-androgen for an extensive period of time and at high doses

People who use RU use it topically at very low concentrations…

This does not prove that this a problem with the receptor, it just suggests that the problem might be with the anti-androgen property of fin and not (only) the 5ar action.

First of all, i don’t claim everyone here has the same problem(s). After all, if our reaction to some drugs are completely different, it seems like the opposite case is true.
But, I don’t see why I would have an immune response after tribulus if it decreases androgen receptors ? Why would I get insomnia, heart palpitations, cognitive dysfunction and frequent urination (like every two hours) ?
Also, why would people from that Italy study have low levels of allopregnanolone and dihydroprogesterone ?

Actually, contrary to your claim, this study claims that tribulus increases AR (immunoreactivity) by 58%:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15588660

And that increase in immunoreactivity is equivalent to increase in density receptors is stated here:
ebi.ac.uk/chebi/searchId.do? … CHEBI:8588

The first box of tribulus i used didn’t have effect on me like the second one, because it didn’t have high levels of protodioscin. So, that’s the first thing to check. The first ‘box’ actually increased my libido a little, but it absolutely didn’t have any significant effect of pfs. I mean all symptoms were still there. . And with the second box I didn’t have an immediate bad reaction but after two weeks or so. But that reaction was completely same as that with sorghum only more severe.
After all, probably the best thing for you is to try it and see how your body reacts. But, like I said, if it has low levels of the active compound it won’t have any significant impact… On the other hand, if it is high in protodioscin and you respond well to it, you will rule out 5ar lack as the cause of your symptoms.

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Your conclusions are interesting. One main thing comes to my mind with your logic:

You are saying that your body is attacking 5 alpha reductase enzymes and that you know this because everytime you take a suppletments that increases 5 alpha reductase enzymes you end up worse off than you where before you took these suppletments.

Here’s the problem:

Tribulus and the other product you mentioned are not proven to be able to actually increase 5 alpha reductase enzymes/function. The only thing these products have actually been proven to do is increase T and even that claim is not backed up by large studies, although I personslly believe high quality tribulus can really increase T.

I think you should take testosterone. If you do and you experience a crash than that tells us that having higher T levels (and probable higher estrogen levels in response to your higher T levels) is causing your crashes. We know taking T is not going to make you produce more 5AR and therefor if taking T makes you feel worse that tells us it’s not having higher levels of 5AR that is making you crash.

Like I said your theory is interesting but needs to be to be put to the test

In other words:

Take T to rull in or rull out if it’s really just increased T and estrogen making you feel worse.

If you take T and you feel better or you feel nothing than that rules out the tribulus raising your T and estrogen levels being the explanation for what’s making you worse when you take tribulus and other natrual T boosters.

Ruling this out rules in your theory

Lastly of an autoimmune issue is at play here than there has to be evidence of this in out blood

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@5 alpha victim
Do you know any drug/supplement that is scientifically proven to increase 5ar ?

After that first box of tribulus, when I actually thought doctors may be able to help me, I had an appointment at endocrinologist when he measured my t levels. It was 32.0 nmol/L (upper limit 34.8). I was very surprised with such a high result because I didn’t notice any change in symptoms. Also, I don’t remember that I had any reaction as that with second round on tribulus (after two or three weeks) and sorghum that resembles immune response. So, I guess that possibility is already ruled out.

I don’t know which measures should be taken to test immune response … CRP ? Is it reliable enough ? I mean, immune response is active only for a period of time (until it reduces 5ar, my guess), and also, I don’t know whether it can go over the line and cause me some serious inflammation issue if I take big amounts of sorghum, for example, to induce it… Anyway, I will experiment with sorghum for some time now, so I guess there will be less unknowns soon.

I don’t think anything is proven to increase 5 alpha reductase function. Hopefully if any of the studies conclude that we are suffering from limited 5 alpha reductase function we will see more focus on drugs that can increase it.

There is a 5 alpha reductase enzyme in the form of a injection that was produced for research purposes. justquitdut talks a lot about this SRD5A2 enzyme it’s called and we are really intrested in wanting to try it out. It’s called SRD5A2 because the SRD5A2 gene actually produces and encodes the 5 alpha reductase enzyme.

Anyway curruntly your best bet is what you are already taking.

But I still wonder if these herbs you are taking are causing you to crash because they are tweaking your T and estrogen and probable SHBG levels or if they are actually like you said increasing you 5 alpha reductase enzymes which are triggering your autoimmune theory.

The only way to know for sure is to take the unknown out of the situation and take T directly

A little update

My list of pfs symptoms has got a new member: tinnitus (and slight ear ache).
Unfortunately, i must take responsibility for this because i started using some drug which is supposed to have immune-modulating activity (strengthening a weak and suppressing an overactive immune system), but in my case it even more stimulated the immune system.

Now I am looking for some protocol for autoimmune diseases, because that’s the cause in my case.
Even though there aren’t many treatments available (if any) I hope next update will be more uplifting.

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The main point here is that 5ar antibodies have been found in humans, they exist. There is a very detailed thread on this topic with far more relevant information than what is being posted here.
It is in the theories section.

I don’t know why the fuck I haven’t posted this in the member section…
Can you tell have you come up with some treatment for reducing symptoms, based on the assumption that this is an autoimmune disease ? Idk, i guess it is much more probable that we are fucked up for life and the only thing we can do is to make our illness more or less tolerable…

I came up with this theory and posted it, and it has taken off, about my “big insights” into PFS, everything I have discovered is still true, but it is just a TINY piece of PFS I now realize. If you add this to my other theories, this explains why 5AR is shutting down. We took an irreversible suicide inhibitor of 5AR enzymes, some event occurred which triggered Estradiol (a 5AR inhibitor), people often link the initial crash to some event that was stressful. The enzymes came back mutated, some guys have more mutated enzymes than others, 5ar antibodies were created, and our system is attacking our 5ar enzymes. Some of us have less antibodies than others.

There actually is a 5AR antibody, and a 5AR antibody test as well as a synthetic 5AR antibody. The 5AR antibody was designed to induce a syndrome that shuts down 5AR2 so that the synthetic 5AR2 enzyme can be tested. PFS shuts down every endocrine system, first you must address testosterone, then you must address Adrenal fatigue, Cortisol, Thyroids. There have been reports of guys having improvements when sick, or when sleep deprived. The drugs used to treat Adrenals are immunosuppressive drugs, they simultaneously reduce the immune response that is preventing our system from recovering.

I am 9 months in and at 80% and stable, I am just on testosterone and Vitex 1600mg a day, I highly recommend Vitex, it is a miracle supplement. It raises Progesterone, lowers estrogen, raises testosterone, lowers Prolactin, raises Dopamine, it was made for PFS! Testosterone seems to speed up recovery time, I asked Ihatepropecia how he feels about not using testosterone for the 4-5 years he suffered with PFS. He agrees with me now that he is on it after the fact that he recovered, and what remnants of PFS he has left are recovering with testosterone and steroid cycles.

The problem here is too much fear of getting better, when you are governed by fear, it is difficult to get anywhere with anything. Thankfully I was able to convince MCI to go on testosterone, he started with the cream, and he is improving, and I told him to increase the dose, and he is improving more, and now he is going to go on injections. There are HUGE misconceptions here about testosterone, that guys with this are androgen insensitive. A lot of guys just don’t response to testosterone the way that some do, many here expect to feel something or experience something when injecting testosterone, that doesn’t happen to all guys.

It happened to me due to my genetics, and it is coming back slowly, but there are many guys who do not have PFS and simply feel nothing from testosterone. Dr Bieley who I am seeing, he doesn’t feel anything from testosterone. So the guys on this forum in their brilliance have concluded that they don’t respond to testosterone or hormones. First of all, when your adrenals are SHOT you don’t respond to hormones, and that’s why some guys like DannyFC feel NOTHING from hormones, shot adrenals.

Even if you were androgen insensitive, you would still have adrenaline rushes etc… Look at all the recoveries associated with adrenal fatigue and thyroid issues. So there are a lot of things going on here, this is why some guys inject testosterone and feel it for 2 weeks and never again (like RecentQuitter). He injected it, his system responded, and then his immune system attacked the enzymes, and in 2 weeks it was gone (like a flu). Awor who declared himself androgen insensitive, he responded to Proviron, that contradicts that theory, I believe at times when his immune system was weak enough, he just so happened to respond.

I don’t have all the answers, but I did get myself to 80%, and I find a bunch of guys on here that are so uneducated and ignorant, vicious and angry. They just want to scare everyone away from trying to get better. I didn’t give up, even though this syndrome adapts like an immune system (which explains why things work for a while and then stop), I kept trying and trying. This forum hasn’t been a place of support, it has been a place that made me worse, it is not healthy for anyone with PFS to visit here, to be abused, told you are not recovering, told you do not really have PFS. To be attacked for finding ways to manage PFS, for finding ways to get better, for making progress and failures.

No, this place is where you go to die, people here need to change, this forum needs to change. This is why I am at Solvepfs.com, but I post here every once in a while. I am still not finished, I am going to treat my Adrenals and thyroid, addressing every system that PFS affected. What you guys don’t understand is with PFS, you go on testosterone, and you feel nothing, but over the course of months, you make improvements. You gain muscle, libido, mood, but very slowly, but you don’t have some amazing response in 10 minutes or 10 days. You may not feel much, but you workout on it, and you will see muscle, and feel improvements. You know it is funny, before I had PFS, many of my guy friends on test would never have any muscle gains or feel much from using it. They would need huge doses of it to gain muscle, I never understood why, I would get huge just from one injection, but also had very oily skin.

I wonder today if these guys just have less 5AR than I did, now I seem to be more like they are. One thing is well known, you don’t feel much from test without working out, it is less effective, well known among guys on it. There was nothing wrong with what I did here, I got people to start trying to get better, but many give up after 1 thing doesn’t work out. There are 2 types of people, quitters and fighters, I am a fighter, that is why I am at 80% and living a normal life now. Full sexual function, libido, muscles, mood, the last bits of PFS will be fixed with Adrenals and Thyroid treatments. I don’t believe I will be the same as I was, but good enough, and in time I will improve more.

If you saw me, I am a buff guy, with a healthy libido, I do not need any ED drugs. I believe my Progesterone cycles played a big role, my use of Masteron and Test cycling back and forth as well. You guys though… Oh no people didn’t recover from testosterone propionate and an AI, that means nothing works and give up!! No, I kept going, I went through maybe 100 different discoveries since then, I landed here. I don’t have all the answers, but I made a lot of progress. When I posted about Vitex on here, I was mocked and attacked, it’s so pathetic, probably the most effective treatment for PFS too (1500mg a day).

I am glad the studies are coming out, but this forum should be moderated, and abuse and bullying and insulting should not be allowed. The reason no one has recovered from one protocol is because many systems are affected, you have to address them all, it will take many protocols. The whole fasting thing, it is just starvation, no reseting of the system bullshit, your immune system is being suppressed by starvation, this probably allows this syndrome to recover more. Though it is a dangerous method, when I saw this post, I had to type this up, I know more people appreciate my posts than don’t. People can always follow me at solvepfs.come, I do think what Mew is doing with the studies is great, it is definitely our best hope. In the meantime people are recovering though, I am one of them.

If you happen to see this post @johnny5ar could you tell me which supplement you took to try regulate your immune system which made things worse further?

I am in the exact same spot you found or find yourself in, I took Tribulus and it appears to have triggered an autoimmune condition which causes an abnormal response to stimuli

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So I am in same position as @johnny5ar
I took Tribulus with protodioscin in it and it damaged me

So when I take Vitamin D or Boron which I took before Tribulus and had great results, I now cannot as my immune system attacks my body

Basically Tribulus with Protodioscin has triggered an autoimmune condition where it attacks anything outside of exercise which tries to increase my androgens

My Endo wanted to prescribe Testosterone gel and I declined it because the risk factor is too high

Basically Tribulus with Protodioscin has triggered an autoimmune condition where it attacks anything outside of exercise which tries to increase my androgens

Some people even get problems from exercise. I recall @awor a long time ago report that he got depressive type symptoms from weight lifting. I get the same thing. It lasts 12 hours or so, then goes away again. If I lift weights again, it comes back.

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