I bet saliva tests would show other results. There lies our problem. Bodies creating good hormones but not being utilized maybe?
Yes my urine / saliva / blood results are vastly different. But I am trying to look for the reason why… That is the hard part.
As for the discrepancy with the 3adiol / 3bdiol testing. This is strange. The italian study showed the levels of 3adiol in the blood where many times higher than controls.
I suggest everyone does extensive blood / saliva and urine tests at the least these will help us elimate what not is causing they problem if they do not show up abnormalities. For me I have learnt so much from testing but coming to a conclusion as to what is messing up my hormones and causing my symptoms is the tricky thing… But the more we narrow it down the better.
Any updates on this? I’m considering asking my doc to test 3adiol and 3bdiol, but I was hoping to see a bit more evidence from others to support this train of thought. I read the articles on ‘allthingsmale’ and this entire thread.
Is there anyone that has lab results which corroborate the Italian study?
So far, the two labs posted are showing ‘reduced’ 3adiol and 3bdiol instead of ‘elevated’, which is what the study shows.
My latest labs show:
Estradiol is 20 -good
Estrone is 10.2 (range 9-36) -good (lower end of range is best)
T is 451 (range 300-890) -ok
DHT is 349 (range 106-719) -ok
Doc wants my T at around 600 and DHT around 500 to 600.
Anyhow, I’ve honed in on 2 theories which need to be tested out further and obtain treatment to improve.
- 3adiol/3bdiol
- Thyroid - TSH, LH, FSH, T3, T4, ReverseT3 (I don’t have a lab test on ReverseT3 yet) ALL of my lab values on the rest are barely above the low end of their ranges.
Although I’ve improved dramatically over the past 6 months, I’m still not back to normal yet.
Still on TRT, Prog, Preg, DHEA, Iodine and taking 73 Vitamin/Supplements daily. It would be impossible to claim any sort of recovery unless I stopped all this stuff, let my body go back to homeostasis naturally and get labs with good results across the board. THIS is what I would consider a real recovery. But I must say that all this effort and expense has resulted in considerable improvements compared to what I was like 6 months ago. I’m not just talking sex function, but all the other sides as well.
What’s left for me to recover from is: low energy, no motivation, no happiness, never get excited, low self esteem, not being social, sense of humor. (going through a divorce only complicates my recovery further)
Vincent’s idea was always one that I thought to be and still do think is one of the best.
My results did not prove it to be correct but I still think it has potential.
Did cdnuts method work for you?
How much of his method did you use?
What has been your experience with dhea?
I have recently started to take it and I have noticed the greatest results so far from dhea than any thing else I have tried thus far…
What kind of dhea do you take? Pill form?
I’m going to be trying twist 25 which is a topical cream dhea product that gets the dhea directly into your blood stream opposed to having it go through your liver first.
Why is your testosterone levels so low even though you are on trt?
The conversion to unwanted metsbolities that act as estrogen in your body theory is good. It’s in my opinion the 3rd best theory on this website.
Vincent is a smart dude
Right now I’m back to damaged 5ar function ability as my number 1.
Read about justquitdut’s I believe I found a cure thread under member stories. It’s good stuff
Yes, I used CDnuts plan after my first attempt with TRT. Fasting, Diet and Exercise proved to be extremely beneficial. I’m still eating clean/organic but allow for a cheat day once a week. Still fast at least once a month for a day or two.
DHEA is very helpful, even Dr. Goldstein takes it. But my labs are very high in DHEA; 572 (range 55-244), But Goldstein said this is fine and not to worry about it. I’m backing off a bit and will take it every other day instead of daily. I take the LifeExtensions brand, 50mg capsules.
I think my T is still low because I use Axiron 60mg and would skips days during the week, thinking the Diet and Exercise combo would bring it in range. Keep in mind that I’m 48yrs old so naturally my optimal natural range would be lower than the young guys. On the first set of the 8 labs taken over the past 2 years, my T was 188 and DHT 136. Propecia essentially gave me the values of a man 125yrs old. So I’m kinda happy with where I am, even though it should be higher.
Yeah, I read all “justquitdut” stuff. Good info, but sometimes a bit irrationally exuberant. Anytime someone uses the words “Cure” or “Recovered” it just makes people suspicious, and then they turn on you like a snake. 
I try to put percentages on any improvements, or call it recovery progress. The only time I’ll be fully convinced of a recovery is when I get a clean set of labs without results being influenced by all the pills, shots, creams, drops and having to live like a health nut.
Last bit of good news is that I’m losing more belly fat. Finally dropped down to a 33" waist. I was a 38" at the highest.
Interesting about your experience with cdnuts methods. Did you also try the androhard part of his method for attempting to increase 5ar activity? Or did you pretty much do everything he did but with no androhard?
When I tried TRT I also used axrion. The way I figure it even at 48 if you are going to spend that money on being on axrion you might as well get your total T up in the 600 range like your doc wants, I mean why not. I had to use max dosage of axrion and apply it really carefully to get my T levels up in the 600’s.
Only other thing I can say from all of my experiences I would not even bother trying to skip days of axrion use thinking you will make up the difference in T levels with diet and exercise because I’m sure your completey shut down anyway… As far as your bodies ability to make T.
But I guess the only way you would know the answre to that question is if you got your LH tested to see where that’s at while on TRT.
Do you feel like the dhea use ups your DHT levels at all or does anything for you to feel as if something is working diff while on it that would be indictive of increase in DHT production?
I have a theory that high dose dhea delivered via topical cream is the same thing as androhard.
So I have this product on the way called twist 25 that is a dhea cream which claims to bypass the liver and puts it directly in the blood stream. I guess when dhea gets processed through the liver it’s broken down into a weaker form.
I plan on using the dhea cream to substitute cdnuts androhard when trying his method.
I’m pretty much doing his method right now minus the fast but plan on doing his entire method step for step starting with a high dose cycle of dhea cream
I found an alternative to AndroHard since it’s no longer available. Alpha Hard http://www.forerunnerlabs.com/
It’s under-dosed compared to AndroHard so take 4 tabs at a time versus 3. I cycled through 2 bottles.
The Doc has two reasons for being conservative:
- He found that his theory of jacking T up to 1300-1400 range did NOT result in bringing DHT back to normal range or ratio.
- Since my T was jacked up to 1,867, the side effects of extremely high T (irritability, anger, aggression) caused my wife to file for divorce. She was aware of PFS and had been supportive and patient, but this TRT experiment was the last straw for her. And I was very angry with the doctor over this.
This is when I stopped taking ALL prescriptions, even anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds. I was naive in thinking they would help, but for the most part, the prescriptions made matters much worse due to their own side effects. And being abandoned by my wife sent me into despair and more suicidal thoughts so I checked myself into a hospital. So this is when I actually began to take action on CDNuts plan. It took a while to collect all the details into one document, then order all the things I didn’t have and figure out a schedule for cycling.
Yeah, inconsistently using exogenous T was not a good idea. Suppose I was still afraid of getting it up too high again, but lab results showed my T and DHT dropped WAY back down after being on CDNuts plan. T was 264 and DHT was 177 but Estradiol was still ok at 20.
So this is why I started back on TRT again, and it’s also why I now suspect 3bdiol is responsible for estrogenic effects. Kind of like a stealth estrogen flying under the radar
un-detected, and interfering with TRT. But this is TBD.
I sent all the info to Dr. Goldstein about 3bdiol for our next discussion.
I can’t say for sure, but DHEA could be involved in improved DHT levels. Hard to say because I’ve cycled AlphaHard as well as Andractim (DHT Cream) along with DHEA.
I just got another two tubes of Andractim in the mail yesterday. Dr Goldstein said the dosing is TOO HIGH from the manufacturer, and to only use 2 small amounts about the size of a Peanut M&M, one on each side of rib cage or thighs. This will also make the tubes last MUCH longer. So after I finish up with Andractim in 5 or 6 months, I plan to alternate with AlphaHard again, after getting labs of course.
Lastly, if you or anyone else is interested, I’m willing to share the consolidated and revised CDNuts plan. I included some Prohormones to assist with bodybuilding and fat loss as well as AlphaHard which replaces AndroHard. I can only say that this plan was very helpful in many ways, but did NOT cure my ongoing hormone imbalance. But results may differ depending on age, DNA, how long you took propecia etc, and whether or not you TRULY DO all the things consistently…
DHEA will only convert to androgens, Testosterone / Estrogen. It has benefits, but I wouldn’t include DHT in the list.
Here’s the pathway:
DHEA -> Testosterone -> 5ar -> DHT
So even if DHEA results in increase Testosterone, the fact that we have 5ar issues in PFS could mean the odds of the DHEA actually ending up as DHT is remote.
If you want higher DHT, Dr. Goldstein is recommending to PFS patients to use Andractim, it’s a topical DHT Cream. No prescription required, but you have to order it online unless you live in Cyprus. It takes about 2 weeks to ship to the US.
Or you can try AlphaHard. These are the only two options I’ve ever found to be available.
ok I have got my results
all units are ng/mL <----------------> Range
Androstenedione ----------------> 0.8 0.5 -2.2
Testosterone ----------------> 3.6 2.6 - 8.9
DHT ----------------> 0.34 0 .24 - 0.84
T/DHT ratio ----------------> 10.5 7.9 - 15.2
5A-Androstene-3Beta,17-Beta(3b-Adiol) ----> 7.0 4.0 - 20.2
5A-Androstene-3alpha,17-beta(3a-Adiol) ----> 4.0 2.3 - 10.5
3beta-Adiol/(DHT+3a-Adiol) Ratio ----> 1.6 0.8 - 6.5
…
Thanks for posting this.
Do you have any feedback from your doctor on these values?
I’m no doctor, but it appears ALL of your lab values are camping at the LOW end of all ranges. But considering they ARE within the ranges, I would expect a doctor to say they are fine.
Having said this, I think there is a HUGE difference between “within range” and “Optimal”.
The lower values of 3bdiol and 3adiol support the similar findings in the Italian study imo. But they don’t appear to be dangerously low in your case.
We need more labs from members to build a common theme. And helpful to know: Age, Which 5ar inhibitor you took, Duration taken, How long since quit, What treatments tried and how long.
These factors my help explain differences in values, and possibly narrow down specific criteria given commonly shared profiles. Ideally, this stuff should be in your PH profile, or signature.
Maybe vincentv can chime in on this?
Not they don’t. It’s the complete opposite.
The Italian study indicated significantly higher levels of 3B-diol in subjects then controls.
Spstriken’s level are just reflective of his low-end testosterone and DHT. All proportionate.
So far we have no evidence of anyone independently finding high levels of 3b-diol. It’s a nice theory but seems like a dead-end.
Thank you for the alpha hard link. I will need to research this product to come to my own conclusion as to how close to androhard it is.
I am deff interested in seeing your version of cdnutd methods.
So in general how long have you been cycling straight Dht and DHT prohormones for?
Would you be willing to type up a time line of your experiences with DHT/DHT prohormones cycling experiences to include exactly what you did and what improvements it any you experienced?
Cycling of DHT and or DHT prohirmones seems to be the most logical thing to do but yet we have such a small amount of members who actually tried it one being cdnuts who claims recovery.
Yea exactly, They would have needed to have been high to confirm Vincents study
Danny fc and 5alpha are correct. I mistakenly commented low levels confirm study finding but should have said HIGH levels would confirm it. Sorry bout that.
Ok, so my eagerness to find some reason to investigate this theory further is deflating.
What say Vincentv about all this? I’m still open minded, but not convinced yet.
Well do you guys have the same symptoms and hormonal profile as the guys in the study? Probably not…
People around here have different sets of hormonal profiles so you cant jus pyt everyone in the same bag and say we all have one condition, which is the same for everyone and has one common reason.
This pfs thing is prpbably a multitude of factors.
.
It will be one underlying factor that causes sexual dysfunction in PFS patients.
That is the primary symptom, and I don’t believe it can be derived from different reactions to the same drug. There has to be a common denominator.
The problem is it goes deeper then any layman can understand - hence why long-term members lose interest despite no recovery. It’s an unsolvable riddle without deep research supported by huge financial resource.
Our only hope is that there’s well directed and focused research that goes beyond the obvious. Any studies on the primary hormones is just a waste of time. We need intensive experiments into the androgenic activity of PFS patients, and an understanding of why it’s impaired compared to controls.
Doctors don’t really understand the CNS and brain. At least for me, this seems to have caused a disconnect in my CNS/brain. I don’t feel my body the same. Emotionally flat ect. Hormones all check out fine but my body probably isn’t using them. I sleep but I don’t feel rested. If I workout my body gets sore but I don’t perceive it.
In my opinion people with pfs fit into different categories and there is no common denominator for everyone. The proof is not everyone experiences the same sides and the sides dont go by severity of the disease.
Not everyone has sexual disfunction from finasteride and we also have people with very strong neurological and no sexual sides, and pepple with strong sexual sides but no neurological dysfunction…