I agree, Mew quoted Quackwatch on adrenal fatigue but this is treated by both Crisler and Shippen.
While I don’t agree with the copper toxicity theory, citing articles on pubmed as definitive proof is contradictory when there are as yet no studies on post-finasteride syndrome and thus the medical establishment usually doesn’t believe us.
Maybe there might be something about it in irwigs study…the first pfs study to my knowledge…not being sarcastic
In regards of people believing or not believing the copper theory…i dont give a shit, sit around on here complaining about how small your dick is and how bad your crashes are or how fin made your lawnmower break down.
I got tested and had high blood copper and low urine which clearly shows my body is retaining it. So i decided to do some research…and i find copper is raised and retained when estrogen is raised…just like the time my estrogen got raised when i was on fin…copper is a 5ar 1 and 2 inhibitor, which among other things will effect bile…copper will lower your histamine levels…In rabbits copper interfears with some hormone receptor sites, mainly progesterone…high copper will almost certainly mean you are zinc + other minerals and vitamins deffeciant
Personally i dont care if you see it as “quackery” and just beceause your name is in red or green doesnt mean you can get a big hard cock whenever you want.
If copper isnt the answer i dont care, but i see no harm in first of all being tested, then getting the excess out of my body.
Im hoping for all of you it is the answer cause i dont see any other solutions on here.
I’m not asking someone to post a study on post finasteride syndrome and copper, as i know this wont exist. I’m not attempting to set you all up for failure. I’m simply asking someone to find a connection between fin usage and copper. anything relating the two. i haven’t taken the time to search for them myself, and it seems that (generally, apologize if i exclude anyone) the only people who post medical studies oft are myself, mew, and annon. I am inviting someone else to join, especially since so many others find this to be the topic of there passion.
If someone sees a recovery, like letsconvenience’s, even though i think its his third or fourth, or a symptom that looks like it could relate to PFS - like copper toxicity (though i still do not know why no one has received chelation for it, if all these people have it?) people jump on it out of the desperation to fix themselves. Trust me, i am desperate to fix myself, but you all must remain realistic and not just hop on every little thing that might be the solution - others realize the desperation we are in, its easy to pick up, and they will attempt to treat it even if they do not know what is going on. But I am unsure that a naturopath would have the in-depth knowledge required to treat something this complex in nature. We are working with one of the countries most recognized urologist, neuroendocrinologist, and andrologist - and yet we still do not have an answer - would a naturopath testing the copper level in hair even know, for example, what adiol-g is or its function in the body?
I think the reason whenever I write something like “may i see a source” or I link to quackwatch, - that people get angry. Why? Because they may realize the actual severity of the situation they are in, and that by posting that type of data it makes me look like the bad guy - like for some reason i am imposing this sentence on them - or perhaps i am simply making the situation more realistic. But that’s a good thing. the sooner we all realize its real, the sooner we realize that popping trib and getting our hair tests might really not solve be our solution, that you will can all take it seriously and start looking for real answers.
Now if you’ve been annoyed by this post - please proceed with the plethora of attacks, Mispellings of my screen name, and/or saying “then why aren’t you recovered.” I’ve heard it all before, and sure I will again. The thing id like to see most though is a copper and fin connection.
I agree that naturopath will be doing it tough to solve this one, although not impossible.
no idea as to how fin affected copper levels… but with what our symptoms are… copper toxicity could be the reason why… I really dont think I know enough to figure that out… but someone who practices that type of medicine could figure it out perhaps. I’m pretty confident that I have some sort of toxicty in my body… but its affecting my liver I can tell you that much for sure based on the fact that my feces has been yellow and has been for a year…which is the time ive quit propecia…yellow feces would indicate high byrillium, which would indicate copper toxicity, which would indicte low zinc levels…I hadnt thought anything of it until someone told me that today. Now im kinda scared…
Letsconv makes a lot of sense if you think about it though…Copper piliing up in the liver… BILE is made in the liver…the reason my feces is yellow is because my live isnt making bile…and it doesnt help that Im on another medication for acne that goes through the liver… has anyone ever had there liver enzymes checked? mine were 100% normal before I started taking propecia…however I know now they most certainly are not. anywho… just my 2 cents.
Golf wrote: (responses are inserted)
I’m not asking someone to post a study on post finasteride syndrome and copper, as i know this wont exist. I’m not attempting to set you all up for failure. I’m simply asking someone to find a connection between fin usage and copper. THERES A LINK THAT WAS POSTED RECENTLY COMPARING THE 5AR INHIBITING EFFECTS BETWEEN FINASTERIDE AND COPPER. I THINK IT WAS TIM WHO POSTED IT.anything relating the two. i haven’t taken the time to search for them myself, and it seems that (generally, apologize if i exclude anyone) the only people who post medical studies oft are myself, mew, and annon. WE’V BEEN OVER THIS BEFORE. THERE SIMPLY MAY NOT BE ANY YET, THOUGH WE ARE TRYING OUR BEST TO PRODUCE WHATEVER WE CAN FIND. I am inviting someone else to join, especially since so many others find this to be the topic of there passion. THERES A REASON FOR THIS - ITS BECAUSE WHETHER OR NOT ITS RIGHT OR WRONG, IT MAKES SENSE.
If someone sees a recovery, like letsconvenience’s, even though i think its his third or fourth, or a symptom that looks like it could relate to PFS - like copper toxicity (though i still do not know why no one has received chelation for it I HAVE ON MY NATURAPATH’S INSTRUCTIONS, BUT HAVE CHOSEN TO LEAVE IT FOR NOW AFTER READING THAT CHELATION CAN MAKE THINGS WORSE IN THE SHORT TERM - THERES EASIER WAYS TO GET RID OF COPPER, if all these people have it?) people jump on it out of the desperation to fix themselves WE ARE DESPERATE YES, BUT STILL ALERT ENOUGH TO FOLLOW SOMTHING THAT MAKES PERFECT SENSE IN THEORY ESPECIALLY SINCE WE HAVE SEEN ONE RECOVERY ALREADY AND A PILE OF LABS THAT ARE STARTING TO FORM A PATTERN. Trust me, i am desperate to fix myself, but you all must remain realistic and not just hop on every little thing that might be the solution NO-ONE IS DOING THIS…NO ONE. - others realize the desperation we are in, its easy to pick up, and they will attempt to treat it even if they do not know what is going on. WOULD YOU RATHER MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS SIT BACK AND SIMPLY GIVE US ANTI-DEPRESSANTS AND SAY ITS ALL IN OUR HEAD? THE FACT THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO TRY AND HELP IS A STEP FORWARD FROM A FEW YEARS AGO But I am unsure that a naturopath would have the in-depth knowledge required to treat something this complex in nature. DO YOU HAVE THE INDEPTH KNOWLEDGE OF HOW IMPORTANT VITAMINS AND MINERALS ARE? ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT? We are working with one of the countries most recognized urologist, neuroendocrinologist, and andrologist - and yet we still do not have an answer - WELL THAT WOULD TELL ME THAT SOMETHING IS STILL MISSING AND WE NEED TO KEEP SEARCHING would a naturopath testing the copper level in hair even know, for example, what adiol-g is or its function in the body? DO THEY NEED TO KNOW? THAT IS SIMPLY A THEORY JUST LIKE THE COPPER THEORY. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO STEER US AWAY FROM THE COPPER THEORY, YET WE ARE NOT STOPPING YOU FROM PERSUING THE ADIOL-G THEORY OR ANY OTHER THEORY. IN FACT WE HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO HIT IT FROM THAT ANGLE WHILE WE SUSS OUT THE COPPER STUFF.
I think the reason whenever I write something like “may i see a source” or I link to quackwatch, - that people get angry. Why? Because they may realize the actual severity of the situation they are in, and that by posting that type of data it makes me look like the bad guy - like for some reason i am imposing this sentence on them - or perhaps i am simply making the situation more realistic. But that’s a good thing. the sooner we all realize its real, the sooner we realize that popping trib and getting our hair tests might really not solve be our solution, that you will can all take it seriously and start looking for real answers. LOL, SURELY YOU CANT BE SERIOUS. I REALISED I WAS IN DEEP SH*T LONG BEFORE I EVEN FOUND THIS FORUM - WHEN I WAS SITTING IN A BATH TUB FOR DAYS ON END STARING AT THE TILES, WATCHING MY PENIS JUST ABOUT FALL OFF. TOO DEPRESSED TO EVEN LEAVE THE HOUSE TO GET FOOD. DONT KID YOURSELF, YOU’RE REALLY NOT THAT INFLUENTIAL. WE CAN ALL THINK FOR OURSELVES AND WE ALL ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO GET BETTER. HOW IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
Now if you’ve been annoyed by this post - please proceed with the plethora of attacks, Mispellings of my screen name, and/or saying “then why aren’t you recovered.” I’ve heard it all before, and sure I will again. WELL WITH AN ATTITUDE LIKE THAT IM SURPRISED IF YOU EVEN READ ANY RESPONSES AT ALL MUCH LESS TAKE THEM IN. The thing id like to see most though is a copper and fin connection. WE HAVE BEEN MAKING CONECTIONS FOR WEEKS NOW ON THESE FORUMS. IT RAISES ESTROGEN AND WE HAVE RECENTLY FOUND OUT THAT IT HAS THE HIGHEST AFFINITY FOR INHIBITING 5AR THAN ANY OTHER METAL AND PERHAPS EVEN FINASTERIDE ITSELF. IF YOU STILL DONT FEEL THIS IS WORTH PERSUING THEN THATS YOUR LOSS BUT GOOD LUCK TRYING TO STOP THE GROWING NUMBER OF GUYS WHO ARE CONVINCED ITS WORTH CHECKING
Seems that a low sodium/potassium ratio will cause adrenal fatigue
Well said J899. Its the people with open minds that have made all the advancements in science. This is no different. Just because everyone says that the world is flat does not mean that we have to believe them.
J899, off topic somewhat but did you have really bad, near total ED which has improved since your crash? How would you assess your erectile function say out of 10 both now and when you crashed? I seem to make little progress bar getting nocturnals.
Lucky, my erectile function is hit and miss. Most of the time I can get it up enough to have sex, but its not what it used to be. All kinds of factors effect it, namely testosterone level and estrogen level.
Thanks j899. My uro said gene therapy will not be here for 15-20 years and as far as he is aware does not work miracles.
I wonder if this penile muscle wastage can be reversed.
Can it be reversed? I woud say yes, once your hormones and body chemistry is right. But im only guessing and judging by my own observations of same.
Im not sure if im tripping here, but did someone on these forums mention that they had hard lumps on their ears? From memory it had something to do with minerals, possibly calcium? Does anyone remember this?
I have these lumps on my ears.
Yes, you are tripping. This has NOTHING to do with Finasteride. Please refrain from posting this type of stuff because its the #1 reason this forum gets labelled as full of hypochondriacs and wackos, vs a very real and legitimate medical problem from taking androgen deprivation medication.
Im sorry for asking a question Mew. I thought this was a forum for helping people overcome side effects. My mistake.
For anyone else who is interested, Im getting my hair mineral analysis results back in two days. I will keep you posted.
I find the wording that he uses to be interesting “who knows, maybe your dick will work again” or something like that… he mentions everything else in detail then addresses the ED in a round about way…
What are you talking about?
he never really says that his dick is working again. i was pointing out how he uses his verbage carefully.
the whole copper thing is just so scammy sounding. you can have copper toxicity if it shows high on your labs. but also, you can have it if it doesn’t show up on your labs… your symptoms improve but then they get worse!.. that sounds like something that someone who was making it up would say. how many other treatments make you symptoms get worse for anything else in life. “here take this antibiotic for your ____ and don’t worry if your symptoms will get much worse because its just the sickness coming out” sounds more a like a guy selling snake oil town to town and this is the internet 2010 version.
what probably happened is this guy took advantage of letsconvenince (for better or worse) and it wasnt the removal of copper or whatever that made him better. its the fact he quit stressing out over his dick not working anymore and started focusing on other things again and finally assumed he was getting better - so he did. but who cares if that is what worked for him then great.
theres a reason that people are warning you online on quackwatch about this stuff.
Oh, so you’re talking about the original poster. Gotcha.
Yes, it is bizzar how the human body works. There is definately a thing called hidden copper toxicity as shown on hair mineral analysis. Beleive it or dont beleive it.
As far as getting worse before you get better goes, this is typical of just about any type of detoxification process. The extreme would be somthing like withrawal from heroin.
Is it not likely that if you detoxify nicotine, heroin, cannibus, alcohol or some other drug that you will get worse before you get better? Your comments show a lack of understanding of how basic detoxification works.
The Quakwatch thing has been discussed before and I tend to agree with Dr Crisler. It is in the big Pharama companies best interest that any type of natural medicine is labelled as quakery. Its about dollars and to them, you are just another number. Finasteride has showed us this.
i have personally detoxed from both heroin and alcohol
Once you are not high anymore… you are sick. very very sick. In fact one time i went into sudden withdrawal because i had taken a suboxone too soon after a percocet and that was an awful experience. the sickest I have ever been. now these were quite a few years back as i am clean and sober now.
once you get sick, you NEVER get sicker before you get better… you are sick (like we are) then you slowly recover. you dont recover a bit then feel better then start puking your guts out again. once you are done puking you are done. now after you puke you will feel better for a few minutes as far as the nausea is concerned but thats it. so i will have to respectfully disagree with your approach to the way that detox has worked - at least for me
thats why this is suspect to me. again - not that i dont think its a possiblity.
ya know? Like if I was a scammer and trying to push something - something I made up - then the perfect pitch would be “take this and you will get better,and dont worry if you dont get better you might get worse…”
am i the only one who gets a red flag from this?