Thanks for your very comprehensive reply…wow. I am still trying to digest it all. Please dont be put off by a lack of immediate response, I have just been too busy lately.
I agree with virtually everything you have said. A lot of the stuff about testosterone reference ranges is very true and youve provided some very good information on that.
I agree with Joshcurtz though that if what Dr Crisler told him is true, then to me that really is somthing to worry about because Dr Crisler is in no way an incompetent doctor. Im just being honest here. I mean what could he be possible missing?
I totally agree that being scared of somthing that you dont even know is there yet is putting the cart before the horse.
See the thing with me is that my SHBG is not eleveated, neither is estrgen. I havnt had a total estrogen done but not sure if that matters, ive only had Estrodiol. My free T is low though, so surely I would have to feel better if I can get that up and liike you say, SHBG might rear its ugly head once my T gets up there again.
And I agree too that having your T cut in half definately would make a difference to ones health, how could it not.
I am still digesting your post so their could be more of a response…LOL.
Dont feel like your not appreciated here because you most definately are. You cant help some of the guys being sceptical of just about anything, since they have been trying things for years that have not worked. I think everyone appreciates your input here and I think your right on the money in most of what you say. Thanks a lot for the indepth reply.
Dr John is a moderator on the Anabolic minds forum. Mostly he posts in the Male Anti aging forum. If someone asks him nicely I’m sure he would come over and take a look at the new forum or you guys could ask him questions over there.
He used to post here as I remember him mentioning it on other forums when propecia use came up.
It certainly would be fun to watch his response to Hypo.
If people read all I had to say and think a lot about what I am saying as it is not straightforward; after that agree or disagree or take from it certain understandings etc then that is fine. I certain appreciate the fact that some people have been reading it.
I was just getting a little frustrated, because I put in an awful lot of time and effort to bring that information to the fore and there were many complex points that were made that I felt were at the time were being brushed over completely. As long as people read properly and give such things thought then all is well and good.
It is funny how you disagree with a point raised and by a series of subsequent misinterpretation has escalated matters to the point where you have now somehow supposedly called into question someone’s ability and it becomes a childlike playground you versus them spat…nonsense really (not aimed at J89 or anyone these things just happen on message boards).
To be fair I never suggested anything negative regarding Dr Crislers ability as a doctor.
I said that I disagreed with the nature of what I was being told in second hand information when applied to the specific context that it was being applied to.
The information was second hand and honest enough- I don’t doubt that for a second.
But there were specifics of the context that I was talking about that were relevant and easily missed/passed over. I am not sure Dr Crisler would say the same thing in the context of this conversation.
Yes he said that people had pathology prior to Propecia use. But I doubt that he detailed whether all baseline pathology was specific to Propecia use prior to Propecia use, I doubt all the tests were identical in nature or that Dr Crisler is saying that and I doubt he was referring to it in the context of this post and my prior points that all baseline levels were returned in all such individuals and assays to the exact same pre treatment levels…via TRT or endocrine altering meds
See the point?
It is easy to miss the VERY relevant context and particulars of this situation and posts and think I am saying something very different and indeed that Dr Crisler is saying something very different.
People need to carefully read what is being said and not just give things a quick once over and miss all the subtleties.
I maybe disagreeing with Dr Crisler or I may not be, I have no idea, because what he said was not in this context. So my disagreement is with how his words have been applied. It is hardly fair to Dr Crisler to apply his words to this context and hardly fair on me to say I am calling him into question….talk about mixing apples and oranges.
If I disagree with someone and have a debate or suggest they are wrong etc. I always like to do so courteously by ensuring that they are actually there, involved in the conversation etc, applying their words to me and the given context even LOL…
Now I have had to make one massive detour to explain away what is actually a side issue and not remotely what the focus of my main post was. But I guess that is fair enough as it was a very important point raised nevertheless and one I would gladly further with Dr Crisler at this forum should he wish to detail what he was saying….we may find there is some disagreement, alternatively we may find there is none at all.
Detour aside, please don’t miss the wood for the trees and get hooked on a potential spat that doesn’t even necessarily exist.
Please read my initial post carefully in the context of the opening post in the thread. I have made many complex points that can explain much as to why replacing baseline levels might not necessarily help people……that is the crux of my post- the very point of me posting in the first place.
Joking analogy……have you ever been out with friends made a really serious point and then had one of your friends misinterpret what you are saying and then that becomes the conversation…so that everything you originally said was lost……I hope that hasn’t just happened…. or
Regarding my original post;
What I am saying stands up and I will certainly debate that with anyone who disagrees with it and that includes any andrologist you like. Now I’m ending a post sounding like a child in a playground as well….god help us!
I just read Anabolicminds and the same thing now with Meso. With all the BS going on now how long will it be before th cops knock on your door for talking about steroids. I also will no longer provide any PCT help as I’m sure that is next to come.
Can people please stop trying to cause flame wars or whatever.
We are all here looking for answers to our problem, that much is a given.
And we should all be grateful that those with greater knowledge in this area have chosen to share such knowledge with us.
Debating wether that be Dr Crisler, Shippen or otherwise should not be the issue. Healthy debate is encouraged but really, we are here to work together, likely try treatments and hopefully, recover.
Josh, discussing members with other Doctors is probably not the best way to accomplish this. Jim and Hypo, I hope you will change your mind and continue to stick around, regardless of any beefs you may have with one or two members.
Thanks… guys just use some common sense instead of trying to stir up a hornet’s nest.
Hypo, my point is that Dr Crsler is by no means just any old GP or “some” endocrinologist and I only mentioned that to make a point that he is very thorough with his patients and how could he miss somthing, considering he says he has baseline levels? There is probably a good chance he does IMO considering how many patients end up in his care who are screwed from finasteride.
In no way was I saying that you think Dr Crisler is not a competent doctor. In fact Ive heard you say a lot of very GOOD things about him. I know you respect Dr Crisler and his work, there is no issue there.
I completely understand what your saying in your original post. About how refernece ranges for testosterone are not age specific and how all sorts of problems can arise when you add testosterone to a hypogonadal patient such as SHBG can increase, E can increase and if untreated can cause problems.
Some of us here know this stuff already. So does Dr Crisler, Josh has claimed that Dr Crisler has said that even with all of this considered, some do not recover. This is what baffles me.
Your right though, and it could be a far reaching hormonal issue that would be impossible to get accurate before and after tests for. I am not saying your wrong at all. I am just saying that a lot of guys have a lot of what you mentioned covered and are still not cured yet. And if we cant rely on past or present bloods, how do we treat it when that fails?
Hypo, I will say again that your input here is VERY important to me and everyone else here. You have already helped fix up one patient and that is HUGE.
I also dont know why people keep going on about how if Dr Crisler posted here, there would be some kind of showdown between Hypo and him. Where did this come from? IMHO, I think Dr Crisler and Hypo would agree on almost everything.
I don’t have any beefs with anyone and will stick around. How could I have abeef with Hypo when I read the first two sentences of his post and skip the rest. I just not going to post about PCT anymore. I think the message boards (not this one) will be the next thing taken down by the police. Some people post from overseas so you are OK
OK, “almost EVERYTHING” was a little optomistic…lol. But what I am saying is they would agree on how complex mens hormones are and Hypo seems to have a good grasp on that. We know that Dr Crisler thinks that there is more to this than just adding TRT and so does Hypo.
No two people are ever going to whole heartedly agree on ANYTHING especially complex topics such as hormones and especially post finasteride hormones.
I have read your post carefully, much I cannot comment on as it is for others to comment upon, but I have to say I do not agree with one of your main points.
Dr Crisler may have referred to baseline results regarding testosterone alone, or free testosterone etc or he may have referred to patients with similar end levels or he may have meant X, Y or Z.
He isn’t here and so I cannot comment on what he actually said in terms of context and meaning.
What I will say is there is no way that a whole bunch of healthy people just happened to have propecia specific in-depth baselines prior to use and then just all happened to then achieve all the same baseline levels in x number of hormones levels via TRT or endocrine altering meds and also all ended up with all ratios back to the same as baseline.
And you know what even if all that was managed (absolutely no chance) were the DHT to T ratios the same? Were the free testosterone to free estradiol ratios the same, what about the SHBG to estradiol ratio if you don’t have free estradiol given it is almost never measured? I am telling you now this has not happened.
Sorry but I refuse to believe that could happen, because it could not and I am not even sure Dr Crisler has said that because the information is second hand.
What frankly is now leaving me very miffed is this side issue, something I have already answered has completely engulfed the entire nature of my original posting and the original question in the thread. I am sure people would gather new information from re-reading my original answer a number of times.- but that isn’t going to happen.
None of this side issue relates to the original question in this thread or my original post…If I didn’t answer the point/side issue fair enough but I have- now multiple times…
I know everyone is having a chat and chipping and such like and I know some people have read what I have written and some nice comments have been made, all that is great. But I just think the original post has been almost entirely shunted off into a railroad siding. No comments have been raised regarding a single issue in my post and it is pushing up the daisies lol
In all honesty I don’t think I’m going to post such detailed information in future, it just gets lost in translation. It has left me constantly having to rectify something I wasn’t saying, constantly having to refer to a side issue etc; it isn’t worth me putting in the effort, just to end up having to fight fires.
I’ll stick to short simple posts and make simple points in future.
OK then, if you feel no one has read (and understood) your initial post, then you are wrong. I’ll take up the disscution if noone else will…
Make sence, BUT if is not correct that most hypogonadal people feels an massive improvement when they get their T up in top of the reference range and holds their E2 in check?
How come this has not worked for ANY propecia sufferes I have heard of who has tried TRT?
I am aware of that, and I think many of us here are aware of that.
Not much new for me here, but I have also read shippens book
Actually, in Denmark they are divided into agegroups…
Most studies I have seen have 22-25 nmol/l as the mean for men aged 24-34 yo.
Most docs no, but the anti ageing doctors some of us see, are aware.
Most of us are secondary with low T and low LH which means our testies are OK but our head are not. I agree it takes a good doctor to figure out this is a problem, when most older hypogonadal men have high LH.
Again nothing new here, just shippens words.
Raise in testosterone caused by Clomid doesn’t really count, cause only very few men will feel better this way. If it was this simple to do TRT, shots and gel would a thing of the past.
Without baseline readings we dont know if we are at the right level, but is it not correct that for most ppl on TRT it dosn’t matter if T is a little higher than before as long as the E2 is good and DHT is not too high?
Maybe, but why are ALL us who has tried unsuccessfull, when at least SOME nomal hypogonadal men trying TRT are not.
Yes but these rules applies ALL on TRT.
Let me hear your thoughts, and no need to do it short for my sake.
The reason I ask is because there are several stories of people getting back to normal (at least for a little while) by using herbal or naturnal fixes like broccoli treatment, tribulus, etc. Apparently, all these things do is give you a hormone boost for a short, until the body readjusts. Anyway, the fact is that they seem to work for a short period for some people. This reinforces hypo’s point.
This is precelily why I am not making any more posts of this nature. You try to help but you end up in a stockade with shit being hurled at you.
The more you say the more people have a field day- irrespective of the legitimacy of anything you then end up fighting fires, trying to extricate yourself out of the mire etc.
A total waste of my time and efforts….really miffed.
A total waste of my time and efforts….really miffed. Oh Poppycock, lol
Seriously what do you do for work ? These posts you write must take hours to come up with unless you have them saved in a file for repeat use.
So what exactly is your medical training ?
How did you work with Shippen on a patient ? Please explain because without a Hippa form it can’t be done and since your overseas i would think Shippen would have even more doubts. I never have heard of a Dr working with someone who is not a Dr on a patient
Since you work with Shippen can I email him and ask about you to see if your legit ?
Ok this is getting ridiculous guys, enough of the back and forth already.
What I’d prefer to see is us reading through the studies that have been posted in the Finasteride/Other Studies section and try and understand how Finasteride may have caused problems, since its mechanisms of action are well-documented there.
But this constant back and forth about Dr Shippen says this, I don’t believe you on that, etc is just a waste of time and energy. Hypo your insights are appreciated, perhaps it is best to steer clear of these debates and simply look at the facts that are presented – ie, the Studies and members’ blood tests, drugs that might kickstart the HPTA etc… any insights into how Finasteride caused problems or can be rectified are fine by me.
Otherwise if this goes on and gets nasty I may have to lock this thread… don’t want to do that though. We’re all in the same boat here, COME ON! Stop acting like kids and work together.
I think I have been very reasonable considering- at any rate I am out of this debate.
What has been well demonstrated is you can’t post something in-depth and detailed given the nature of such forums- a shame.
P.S
Unlike many of the studies what I was relating was factual and relevant. Many of the studies lack relevance…studies on rats, unknown levels of finasteride etc etc. But there is no point in me trying to cast light with anything complex as it just doesn’t work.
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