Why would TRT not work?

General Discussion
#6

No.

I am saying that this is hormonal, but that it is no where near as simple as people seem to believe and not a simple case of supposed normal numbers and supposed normal reference ranges. That is what I am saying.

Fair enough.

Dr Crisler is but one doctor.

He has a good reputation, but he is also a brilliant self publicist.

Dr Crisler is not the be all and end all when it comes to endocrine evaluation and he hasn’t successfully cured anyone of these problems by his own admission if what has been reported by his patients on this site is true. I have helped Dr Shippen to cure at least one patient. Dr Shippen is also a published author and has a worldwide reputation greater than that of Dr Crisler and I have quoted him so that people can see his thoughts on hormone levels- given its relevance in this setting.

With that out of the way I’ll come to another point;

I don’t think you can say that Dr Crisler has undertaken in-depth tailored endocrine pathology that obtains all the baselines we would require in the manner I have stated, because we have no evidence of this. Again even if we did have evidence of this I have already explained that the numbers alone do not tell us everything.

But think about this;

Why would anyone have in-depth endocrine pathology to check out all of their sex hormones if it was prior to propecia use?

Simply put why would anyone be having endocrine pathology of this nature if they were perfectly well?

I just don’t believe that because it just doesn’t make any sense.

The only way anyone would have had this pathology prior to propecia use would be because;

A) They were already taking endocrine altering meds
B) They suspected underlying endocrine disease/ill health prior to propecia use

Either way neither of the above could be considered in the same bracket as people who were well prior to propecia use who did not suspect that they had endocrine disease/ill health or had not taken endocrine altering meds……

If you can explain why on earth anyone who was well and not using endocrine altering meds would be having this endocrine pathology prior to propecia use then I might consider it possible for the odd person to have had some pathology prior- but that is it.

….it just doesn’t add up.

This isn’t your issue- you have been told something and are repeating which is fair enough.

In any respect this is a side issue. The points I make in my original mail remain and are very relevant to the opening post.

#7

I think all josh is trying to illustrate is that besides all the many many complicated intricate, fluctuating checks and balances, complex chemical reactions taking place, and the hormone problems and imbalances probably taking place in many of us, there are also probably some other things happening. Like there may have been some sort of physical damage down there or something, like my balls are numb sometimes. I think it was a powerful medicine that could have done some damge, other than JUST throwing off the hormone balance. I think that sometimes my dick just may need some sort of physical therapy or something.
Btw guys. I’m doing “The Master Cleanse”. Look for my post. Later

#8

Sorry but I feel I have to remind people of what the original question in this thread was,

I feel I have answered that question very well in my original reply with factual reasons as to why that can easily happen. Conversely I also feel that what has been said subsequently as to possible reasons involves conjecture as opposed to the factual answers that I provided.

I could speculate that the reason for post Propecia problems is;

An alteration in the liver’s p450 system, or I could speculate that it is because of an alteration in the function of androgen receptors, or I could speculate that the neurotransmitters are adversely affected. Indeed with just speculation and no hard proven facts, I could say that I suspect that the problem is caused by a giant invisible rabbit called Harvey, or that post Finasteride problems are due to moon tides or avalanches in the alps or interactions with butterflies in the south Atlantic.

Yes it sounds like I am losing it above, I am meant to sound barking mad so I can make a very relevant point and it is this. If you are dealing in speculation instead of proven facts then ALL the examples above are on the same footing because there is no evidence for or against any of them of significant value.

We can all come up with pet theories that are short on facts and high on speculation as to what may occur, but given that none of them can further this cause I see little point in dealing in them. Sticking to the known facts available “at this time” is the only way that you can help provide answers that are likely to be helpful to individuals pursuing a return to good health. No conjecture in the world is going to result in a scientific finding that somehow provides an answer. Sticking to the facts as they are is all that you can do, with the furthering of scientific knowledge being in the hands of others.

P.S

One thing I would say for sure is that I don’t think my original reply has been given either due weight or attention; I think that is because it hasn’t really been read through or understood properly and sometimes I do wonder if there is any point in providing in-depth, detailed factual responses that take up so much time and effort. Particularly given that speculation and conjecture seems to carry equal weight/value as facts do around here anyway……:frowning:

A P.S to the P.S :slight_smile:

The physical changes that have ben noted in the genitals often ocurr in hypogonadism due to a lack of N.O, and or a lack of androgens and or too high a level or ratio of estrogens. This has long since been known and could easily account for what has been reported here as “damage”.

Why go looking for bogie men when you have a bogie man stood on your door step in the form of the aforementioned condition ???

#9

I think you are wrong. Dont judge only on the replies.

I read and value every post from you, and most of all I dont write your thery off without trying it out. In a few weeks I will try TRT again, and I will share my testresults with you, and give you a chance to help me getting the treatment you feel will work for me, so please stick around a little longer :wink:

JH

#10

Thanks for your very comprehensive reply…wow. I am still trying to digest it all. Please dont be put off by a lack of immediate response, I have just been too busy lately.

I agree with virtually everything you have said. A lot of the stuff about testosterone reference ranges is very true and youve provided some very good information on that.

I agree with Joshcurtz though that if what Dr Crisler told him is true, then to me that really is somthing to worry about because Dr Crisler is in no way an incompetent doctor. Im just being honest here. I mean what could he be possible missing?

I totally agree that being scared of somthing that you dont even know is there yet is putting the cart before the horse.

See the thing with me is that my SHBG is not eleveated, neither is estrgen. I havnt had a total estrogen done but not sure if that matters, ive only had Estrodiol. My free T is low though, so surely I would have to feel better if I can get that up and liike you say, SHBG might rear its ugly head once my T gets up there again.

And I agree too that having your T cut in half definately would make a difference to ones health, how could it not.

I am still digesting your post so their could be more of a response…LOL.

Dont feel like your not appreciated here because you most definately are. You cant help some of the guys being sceptical of just about anything, since they have been trying things for years that have not worked. I think everyone appreciates your input here and I think your right on the money in most of what you say. Thanks a lot for the indepth reply.

#11

Dr John is a moderator on the Anabolic minds forum. Mostly he posts in the Male Anti aging forum. If someone asks him nicely I’m sure he would come over and take a look at the new forum or you guys could ask him questions over there.

He used to post here as I remember him mentioning it on other forums when propecia use came up.

It certainly would be fun to watch his response to Hypo.

#12

Do you use the same name on AnabolicMinds? I asked Dr. Crisler if he knew who you were and he did not recognize your name.

#13

Ok…

If people read all I had to say and think a lot about what I am saying as it is not straightforward; after that agree or disagree or take from it certain understandings etc then that is fine. I certain appreciate the fact that some people have been reading it.

I was just getting a little frustrated, because I put in an awful lot of time and effort to bring that information to the fore and there were many complex points that were made that I felt were at the time were being brushed over completely. As long as people read properly and give such things thought then all is well and good.

It is funny how you disagree with a point raised and by a series of subsequent misinterpretation has escalated matters to the point where you have now somehow supposedly called into question someone’s ability and it becomes a childlike playground you versus them spat…nonsense really (not aimed at J89 or anyone these things just happen on message boards).

To be fair I never suggested anything negative regarding Dr Crislers ability as a doctor.

I said that I disagreed with the nature of what I was being told in second hand information when applied to the specific context that it was being applied to.

The information was second hand and honest enough- I don’t doubt that for a second.

But there were specifics of the context that I was talking about that were relevant and easily missed/passed over. I am not sure Dr Crisler would say the same thing in the context of this conversation.

Yes he said that people had pathology prior to Propecia use. But I doubt that he detailed whether all baseline pathology was specific to Propecia use prior to Propecia use, I doubt all the tests were identical in nature or that Dr Crisler is saying that and I doubt he was referring to it in the context of this post and my prior points that all baseline levels were returned in all such individuals and assays to the exact same pre treatment levels…via TRT or endocrine altering meds

See the point?

It is easy to miss the VERY relevant context and particulars of this situation and posts and think I am saying something very different and indeed that Dr Crisler is saying something very different.

People need to carefully read what is being said and not just give things a quick once over and miss all the subtleties.

I maybe disagreeing with Dr Crisler or I may not be, I have no idea, because what he said was not in this context. So my disagreement is with how his words have been applied. It is hardly fair to Dr Crisler to apply his words to this context and hardly fair on me to say I am calling him into question….talk about mixing apples and oranges.

If I disagree with someone and have a debate or suggest they are wrong etc. I always like to do so courteously by ensuring that they are actually there, involved in the conversation etc, applying their words to me and the given context even LOL…

Now I have had to make one massive detour to explain away what is actually a side issue and not remotely what the focus of my main post was. But I guess that is fair enough as it was a very important point raised nevertheless and one I would gladly further with Dr Crisler at this forum should he wish to detail what he was saying….we may find there is some disagreement, alternatively we may find there is none at all.

Detour aside, please don’t miss the wood for the trees and get hooked on a potential spat that doesn’t even necessarily exist.

Please read my initial post carefully in the context of the opening post in the thread. I have made many complex points that can explain much as to why replacing baseline levels might not necessarily help people……that is the crux of my post- the very point of me posting in the first place.

Joking analogy……have you ever been out with friends made a really serious point and then had one of your friends misinterpret what you are saying and then that becomes the conversation…so that everything you originally said was lost……I hope that hasn’t just happened…. :frowning: or :slight_smile:

Regarding my original post;

What I am saying stands up and I will certainly debate that with anyone who disagrees with it and that includes any andrologist you like. Now I’m ending a post sounding like a child in a playground as well….god help us!

#14

I just read Anabolicminds and the same thing now with Meso. With all the BS going on now how long will it be before th cops knock on your door for talking about steroids. I also will no longer provide any PCT help as I’m sure that is next to come.

#15

Cool, was just curious.

#16

What is going on here?

Can people please stop trying to cause flame wars or whatever.

We are all here looking for answers to our problem, that much is a given.

And we should all be grateful that those with greater knowledge in this area have chosen to share such knowledge with us.

Debating wether that be Dr Crisler, Shippen or otherwise should not be the issue. Healthy debate is encouraged but really, we are here to work together, likely try treatments and hopefully, recover.

Josh, discussing members with other Doctors is probably not the best way to accomplish this. Jim and Hypo, I hope you will change your mind and continue to stick around, regardless of any beefs you may have with one or two members.

Thanks… guys just use some common sense instead of trying to stir up a hornet’s nest.

#17

Hypo, my point is that Dr Crsler is by no means just any old GP or “some” endocrinologist and I only mentioned that to make a point that he is very thorough with his patients and how could he miss somthing, considering he says he has baseline levels? There is probably a good chance he does IMO considering how many patients end up in his care who are screwed from finasteride.

In no way was I saying that you think Dr Crisler is not a competent doctor. In fact Ive heard you say a lot of very GOOD things about him. I know you respect Dr Crisler and his work, there is no issue there.

I completely understand what your saying in your original post. About how refernece ranges for testosterone are not age specific and how all sorts of problems can arise when you add testosterone to a hypogonadal patient such as SHBG can increase, E can increase and if untreated can cause problems.

Some of us here know this stuff already. So does Dr Crisler, Josh has claimed that Dr Crisler has said that even with all of this considered, some do not recover. This is what baffles me.

Your right though, and it could be a far reaching hormonal issue that would be impossible to get accurate before and after tests for. I am not saying your wrong at all. I am just saying that a lot of guys have a lot of what you mentioned covered and are still not cured yet. And if we cant rely on past or present bloods, how do we treat it when that fails?

Hypo, I will say again that your input here is VERY important to me and everyone else here. You have already helped fix up one patient and that is HUGE.

I also dont know why people keep going on about how if Dr Crisler posted here, there would be some kind of showdown between Hypo and him. Where did this come from? IMHO, I think Dr Crisler and Hypo would agree on almost everything.

#18

I don’t have any beefs with anyone and will stick around. How could I have abeef with Hypo when I read the first two sentences of his post and skip the rest. I just not going to post about PCT anymore. I think the message boards (not this one) will be the next thing taken down by the police. Some people post from overseas so you are OK

#19

HIGHLY UNLIKELY !

#20

OK, “almost EVERYTHING” was a little optomistic…lol. But what I am saying is they would agree on how complex mens hormones are and Hypo seems to have a good grasp on that. We know that Dr Crisler thinks that there is more to this than just adding TRT and so does Hypo.

No two people are ever going to whole heartedly agree on ANYTHING especially complex topics such as hormones and especially post finasteride hormones.

#21

If you locked Dr John in a room for 24 hours by himself there would be an argument

#22

I have read your post carefully, much I cannot comment on as it is for others to comment upon, but I have to say I do not agree with one of your main points.

Dr Crisler may have referred to baseline results regarding testosterone alone, or free testosterone etc or he may have referred to patients with similar end levels or he may have meant X, Y or Z.

He isn’t here and so I cannot comment on what he actually said in terms of context and meaning.

What I will say is there is no way that a whole bunch of healthy people just happened to have propecia specific in-depth baselines prior to use and then just all happened to then achieve all the same baseline levels in x number of hormones levels via TRT or endocrine altering meds and also all ended up with all ratios back to the same as baseline.

And you know what even if all that was managed (absolutely no chance) were the DHT to T ratios the same? Were the free testosterone to free estradiol ratios the same, what about the SHBG to estradiol ratio if you don’t have free estradiol given it is almost never measured? I am telling you now this has not happened.

Sorry but I refuse to believe that could happen, because it could not and I am not even sure Dr Crisler has said that because the information is second hand.

What frankly is now leaving me very miffed is this side issue, something I have already answered has completely engulfed the entire nature of my original posting and the original question in the thread. I am sure people would gather new information from re-reading my original answer a number of times.- but that isn’t going to happen.

None of this side issue relates to the original question in this thread or my original post…If I didn’t answer the point/side issue fair enough but I have- now multiple times…

I know everyone is having a chat and chipping and such like and I know some people have read what I have written and some nice comments have been made, all that is great. But I just think the original post has been almost entirely shunted off into a railroad siding. No comments have been raised regarding a single issue in my post and it is pushing up the daisies lol :frowning:

In all honesty I don’t think I’m going to post such detailed information in future, it just gets lost in translation. It has left me constantly having to rectify something I wasn’t saying, constantly having to refer to a side issue etc; it isn’t worth me putting in the effort, just to end up having to fight fires.

I’ll stick to short simple posts and make simple points in future.

#23

OK then, if you feel no one has read (and understood) your initial post, then you are wrong. I’ll take up the disscution if noone else will…

Make sence, BUT if is not correct that most hypogonadal people feels an massive improvement when they get their T up in top of the reference range and holds their E2 in check?

How come this has not worked for ANY propecia sufferes I have heard of who has tried TRT?

I am aware of that, and I think many of us here are aware of that.

Not much new for me here, but I have also read shippens book :wink:

Actually, in Denmark they are divided into agegroups…

Most studies I have seen have 22-25 nmol/l as the mean for men aged 24-34 yo.

Most docs no, but the anti ageing doctors some of us see, are aware.

Most of us are secondary with low T and low LH which means our testies are OK but our head are not. I agree it takes a good doctor to figure out this is a problem, when most older hypogonadal men have high LH.

Again nothing new here, just shippens words.

Raise in testosterone caused by Clomid doesn’t really count, cause only very few men will feel better this way. If it was this simple to do TRT, shots and gel would a thing of the past.

Without baseline readings we dont know if we are at the right level, but is it not correct that for most ppl on TRT it dosn’t matter if T is a little higher than before as long as the E2 is good and DHT is not too high?

Maybe, but why are ALL us who has tried unsuccessfull, when at least SOME nomal hypogonadal men trying TRT are not.

Yes but these rules applies ALL on TRT.

Let me hear your thoughts, and no need to do it short for my sake.

JH

#24

If it’s not hormones, then what the hell could it be!?!?

#25

The reason I ask is because there are several stories of people getting back to normal (at least for a little while) by using herbal or naturnal fixes like broccoli treatment, tribulus, etc. Apparently, all these things do is give you a hormone boost for a short, until the body readjusts. Anyway, the fact is that they seem to work for a short period for some people. This reinforces hypo’s point.