Why test for 3a-diol-G and what to do based on the results?

General Discussion
#1

I have read virtually every post on this… and i get it …that this could be the marker that indicates perm FIN side effects, but what am I to tell the endro I am looking to do if I test in the LOW RANGE or out-or-range?

I know need to post my story - but long story short i had many of the same symptoms as all of you which co-incided with stopping FIN.To make it worse I stopped started several times. I happen to be middle aged so of course my symptoms have been attributed to this by most doctors. I have been to GP, 2 urologists, 2 endros and anti-aging doctor.

The only thing everyon can agree on is low Thyroid (T3 and T4) and Hydrocele and varicocele (one of each which is “nothing to worry about” per urologist). Also: glucose is high so that might account for some fatigue (pre diabetic?)

anti aging doctor protocole was T + HCG + HGH + Crysone + Thyroid.

Allthough this made me feel good, I had some issues with it (which ill post in my story later) Crysin failed to reduce estridol levels and at one point I was as high as 102. Novadex (tamoxofin) made me feel good but made it impossible to achieve orgasm so I stopped it.

I am currently weened off everything and have opted for ordinary pharmaceutical company thyroid meds (cytomel & sytharoid) and this has fixed the fatigue and depression.

My lab results have varied over the last couple of years especially on HRT but low available T and low thyroid and high estradol seem like the trend.
DHT became normal after stopping FIN and my anemia went away then also.

I get more labwork next week for the first time since weaning off HRT so I am interested in the results. Libido is still not where it used to be allthough the functionality is there.

I will post lab results and my story later this week.

but mostly what to know what to tell the endro regarding the 3a-diol-G

I am intersted in natural T boosters and natural estrigne inhibitors but am wanting to see if I can get thru this without any more boiidentical stuff or meds. I am going to try to gradually reduce the Thyroid meds if the las results are otherwise ok and see how low i can go or if my bodys T3 & T4 will gradually come back.

#2

That’s what I’m afraid also. But that’s the future. I haven’t yet seen any hope in testing the hormone at all in my country and so hasn’t my doctor.

#3

got my results:

3-ADIOL-G 183 ng/dll ref range 260 - 1500

(WTF? so then am I a transsexual now? this is disturbing especially as my T levels are starting to normalize on their own after stopping HCG and crysin…)

T = 743
free T = 78.4
%free T = 1.05 (Still LOW)

Estridol = 51 ref range 13-54 pg / ml (its been as high as 102 last fall)

I am currently off all Hormones except Thyroid (cytomel & syntharoid)and am cutting that in half as my thyroid improved.

Wonder if I couldn’t just try Tamoxiflin or lots of crysin and lower the E thus unbinding the T?

trying to feel good with the minimum amount of substances.

Recently added ZINC and this has helped with testicular aches (i think)

My symptoms have been:

Fatigue (thyroid meds kind of cured this…for now)
Loss of libido (T + GH + HCG) had cured this but they had their own set of issues)
Orgasms are not pleasurable
time warp (you all call it brain fog - its where I lose track of hours on end as I wander in my own mind)
Vision issues (macular degeneration
Vision Issues (extreme sensitivy to sunlight)
aches and pains below the waste - especially testicals
varicole in testical (ultrasound)
hydrocole in other testicular (ultrasound)
veins and buldges in penis
nodes on thyroid (ultrasound)
anxiety (walk into the lobby - and feel like I’m walking up to ask a girl to dance)
panick attacks in the night

Since I have good and bad days its tough to say what treatments help and I have no idea where I was to begin with bloodwork wise. I am wondering if there is not something about us that made us susceptible to this syndrome and then other days I read what so many people on PRO-FIN sites are speaking about (the same sides) and I think that 100% of the people on this drug may experience sides but never connect the dots.

I digress, and this is off topic, but it was actually something a guy said on a PRO-FIN site that knocked me on my ass and got me off FIN. Something about: its kind of nice cause now Im not thinking about sex all the time and now I can get my work done, I was like WTF, THAT IS NOT WHAT BEING AN INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY IS ALL ABOUT!

Anyway I’m just a little weirded out by my 3-ADIOL-G 183, so forgive my tirade. I am just getting paranoid that the more I read about why they invented FIN, the more I am scared it may be working as designed. If your 85, and your days of shagging women are long over, and your dying of prostate cancer, and you can take a drug that will DECIMATE the prostate, thereby giving you 4 or more 5 years to enjoy your grandchildren, then by all means the cure is better than the affliction. And please don’t anyone also get paranoid by my gross oversimplification. I am not a man of science. That’s just my crude interpretation and I’m just pissed becase of all the hair consultants and doctors that assured me that all DHT is good for is making you bald and if you could lower it, all would be well with the world.

#4

3-ADIOL-G 183 ng/dll ref range 260 - 1500

This is not at the low end of the range. IT IS OUT OF RANGE!

Could I try the same things people use to raise T to try to raise 3-ADIOL-G? (vitamins, minerals herbs, anti-ahromitizers, diet)

Mine is the lowest level I have seen on any posts here (or on streroid forums).

(WTF? so then am I a transsexual now? this is disturbing especially as my T levels are starting to normalize on their own after stopping HCG and crysin…)

T = 743
free T = 78.4
%free T = 1.05 (Still LOW)

Estridol = 51 ref range 13-54 pg / ml (its been as high as 102 last fall and as low as 36 in December)

I am currently off all Hormones except Thyroid (cytomel & syntharoid)and am cutting that in half , as my thyroid improved.

Wonder if I couldn’t just try Tamoxiflin or lots of crysin and lower the E ,thus unbinding the T?

trying to feel good with the minimum amount of substances.

Recently added ZINC and this has helped with testicular aches (i think)

My symptoms have been:

Fatigue (thyroid meds kind of cured this…for now)
Loss of libido (T + GH + HCG) had helped withthis but they had their own set of issues)
Orgasms are not pleasurable
carpural penis syndrom (my name) penis is plenty erect - but feels consticted and ejaculation is not preasuarble and is thwarted. (i noticed is while on HumanGrowthHormone and wondered if it is not a cousin of carporal tunnel syndrome which is a known side of HGH)
time warp (you all call it brain fog - its where I lose track of hours on end as I wander in my own mind)
Vision issues (macular degeneration
Vision Issues (extreme sensitivy to sunlight)
aches and pains below the waste - especially testicals
testicals and penis seem visibaly distended. (like some breeds of dogs whre genetailia seems barly connected)
varicole in testical (ultrasound)
hydrocole in other testicular (ultrasound)
veins and buldges in penis
nodes on thyroid (ultrasound)
anxiety (walk into the lobby - and feel like I’m walking up to ask a girl to dance)
panick attacks in the night
no body oder (dont even buy deoderant any more)

Since I have good and bad days its tough to say what treatments help and I have no idea where I was to begin with (baseline) bloodwork wise.

#5

We wont start getting better until Dr. irwig study is complete…

A lot of doctors do not care at the present moment…Some do, but some dont…

It will take this study to get there attention. They will think TWICE before prescribing medicine that is poisonus to people with it properly documented.

#6

did your endo offer any suggestions as to why adiol g is low and what to do to bring it up? did you use cytomel alone before taking any t4 supplements or test your rt3?

#7

endro had no idea on 3-ADIOL-G: he put me on syntharoid and cytomel

Dr. G put me on clomipine to boost testosorince and arimidex to cut estrogen.

not sure what my next move is.

#8

QuestionGuy,

How is your sexual function right now?

#9

what’s RT3 and FT3/RT3 ratio? perhaps you don’t need synthroid just T3

#10

Questionguy - hang in there, my Adiol-G reads are as low as yours. Am not dead yet, exercise 2x+ week, manage to have vaguely interesting intercourse* with an attractive female my age once a week, by virtue of a carefully constructed regimen of endogenous T booster, pharamacuetical grade estrogen control, prolactin reducer, and $200+/month of nutritional supplements including PDE5 inhibitor.

Would suggest dropping the zinc unless you have tested for a deficiency of it via serum or another common technique. This is because zinc is a 5 alpha reductase type 2 inhibitor and would be expected to reduce adiol-G. In the short term taking medium doses of high absorption zinc can raise T levels in part by supressing estradiol, thus short term you might feel a little better, does not work long term BTDT. Get in shape but do it slowly . . . a little at a time. Chrysin I think is too weak, should be applied where it would do the most good e.g to the testicles as a liposomal cream.

How much clomiphene and arimidex are you taking? Easy to overdo the later.

  • please no one write me and ask if I’m cured. I am not - even with the regimen most climaxes are weak in all ways. Going off the regimen as I have twice in the last year for a month or so causes fatigue, zero libido, very poor function, and other symptoms including but not limited to complete loss of morning wood.
#11

Not trying to get evil with you but do you have a source on this. I can only find it documented as a type 1 inhibitor.

#12

Tim, a fair question. It appears (see below) that 5AR2 only gets inhibited at higher doses of zinc.

#13

Kazman sorry to bust this fella out again…ive already got it on here a couple of times

Cations inhibit specifically type I 5 alpha-reductase found in human skin.

Abstract
Steroid 5 alpha-reductase catalyzes the reduction of testosterone into the very potent androgen dihydrotestosterone. Previously, we showed that human type I 5 alpha-reductase is expressed mainly in the skin, whereas a type II 5 alpha-reductase is more specifically expressed in the prostate. To assess the possible differential effects of various cations on the two types of 5 alpha-reductase, we constructed expression vectors and transfected them into SW-13 cells, a human adrenal carcinoma cell line containing negligible endogenous 5 alpha-reductase activity. The expressed 5 alpha-reductases were analyzed for their sensitivity to Li, Ca, Cd, Cu, Mg, Mn, Ni, Zn, and Fe. The results showed that type I 5 alpha-reductase was strongly inhibited by Cd, Cu, and Zn and moderately inhibited by Ni and Fe, with 50% inhibitory concentration values of 0.9, 1.9, 2.0, 169.2, and 174.3 microM, respectively. In contrast, type II 5 alpha-reductase activity was inhibited only by Cu, with a 50% inhibitory concentration value of 19.2 microM. The data showed that cations could specifically control 5 alpha-reductase activity expression, which is more strongly inhibited in a target tissue, especially the skin.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7738354

#14

Tim, very interesting abstract. As copper and zinc balance each other (too much zinc intake will reduce copper uptake, as they enter the body through the same type of reaction) there might in fact be some benefit to low dose zinc.

My original info regarding 5AR2 and zinc came from a well referenced table on one of the hair loss sites which cataloged all known 5AR2 inhibitors. At higher doses it was shown to be as strong as fin. For some reason I’m having a hard time relocating it, might have it bookmarked on a different computer. Will continue to search, and perhaps this discussion should be broken out into its own thread, given the potential importance.

Most abstracts indicate zinc to be a general 5AR inhibitor, the more careful studies seem to indicate it inhibits 5AR1 (might be beneficial to us if it shunts more T>DHT through 5AR2) at low levels then at higher levels it inhibits 5AR2. Finally, zinc is an important actor (finger) within the androgen receptor and (I think) and its expression (once again showing the close ties between 5AR2 and AR).

My current zinc intake is a scant 3 mg/day supplemented (plus whatever comes from meat), cycled (4 week on 2 off).

kazman