(14 dec 2021) Keep getting new sides

Member Stories
#12

31 days pfs:
Metabolism is very slow. Eating the exact same 2300 calories daily, which was my maintenance. This is now causing an increase in bodyweight. At first finasteride caused an extreme lack of hunger, to the point of being able to not eat for a whole day with only getting some slight signals of hunger at the end of the day.

At one point I forced myself to eat more to keep muscles intact. Right now, I have gained 5 lbs in a month, while not having changed anything in my diet, probably even eating less. Metabolism must be slowed down by alot.

Are there any things that could improve this?

Also, gynecomastia is getting worse so I’m increasing Raloxifene use again. Upping the dose from 30 to 60mg (default dose).

#13

Ralox is linked to weight gain, don’t know but it could be related?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/raloxifene-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20065760

Weight gain is listed under “common” and it also has deceased appetite under “less common”.

Maybe the hunger was prevalent before you started Ralox though, but it’s worth noting.

Me personally I wouldn’t even use medicine for gyno, it’s useless in my opinion. Better to save for surgery and get a good surgeon who will remove 100% of the gland without the nipple collapsing.

Not many docs know how to do this though, I know only about a few all located in the USA.

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#14

It’s also a good strategy, but for me it’s too expensive. I’d rather blow 200 bucks until my e2 is in range again.

I was using raloxifene before pfs, so it’s not a new variable. It could have had an catalyzing effect maybe, but I guess it’s just pfs, seeing others are having issues with increased weight as well.

If your far gone regarding gyno, there’s no point in using medicine, since it’ll only prevent further growth up to an extent. It might make the tissue less visible but it’ll never be gone.

#15

Did you get bloods? I couldn’t find any in your posts. If possible I’d really like to see them.

Yeah for sure. Didn’t knew you used it before. Also I saw you used Creatine and it can make you pack on 2-3 kg, water not fat though.

Yeah exactly and in my opinion I wouldn’t use strong medicine when they don’t even “fix” the problem. Especially not after this fin nightmare.

#16

Of course, got ya. Wouldn’t either. I doesn’t to too much wrong, (nothing psychologically) but I understand the concern. It is know to have incidents of deep vein trombosis with some people, which is the only thing I’m worried about rn. And of course your influencing the hormone profile which could be a big risk.

Yeah I have the bloods, I don’t know if I’ll upload them. I could dm them though. E2 was low before starting fin. Little under the average. But not out of range. believe 30 was average, got something between 20 and 25 if im not mistaken. These values were off Raloxifene, but close to starting fin, don’t know the exact unit measure by heart.

I think E2 must be about 60-70 right now, because of the lack of 5AR-> DHT, which by lack of it lets E2 shoot to the top end or over. Would explain the gyno forming once I lower raloxifene. Just theorizing though.

EDIT: Good point about the creatine. Could be related to water retention.

#17

32 days pfs:
Realized I lost authority. Before people felt a need to respond to things I said. Because it made a dent. Right now nobody cares. They don’t feel any need to respond. If they respond it’s mostly out of pity.
Whenever I’m arguing or pointing things out, I can’t seem to influence people any longer. They’ll just laugh and say to the most: interesting.
How am I ever supposed to lead my woman.

I hope this s can get fixed by fixing hormone levels, this is starting to get unbearable at this point. At first is was a fun experience to feel a bit different, being like a stone for my existence, rn I’m done with the trip.

Potential additional pathways in evaluation:

  • bupropion (med)
  • proviron (med)
  • rhodiola rosea (sup) (removed) (study for treatment against BPH in rats showed success/5ARI read more)
  • pycgenol (sup) (removed)
  • maca (sup)
  • ginseng (sup)

EDIT: Nofap working pretty well for me. Now on day 6 or so. I can get hard easier, it still not as fast and still not so much on pure visuals, but it definitely improved. The mental side effects/brain changes are the biggest issue I’m dealing with, it also seems to be at the core of everything else. And it’s not well at all.

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Nicotinamide Mononeuclotide
#18

So you only got tested before fin not after right? If you could pm me the results I’d be grateful!

Maybe, one would need tests to confirm. Generally speaking it seems like the evidence that fin increase T and E2 aren’t that strong. I can find studies where they’re either not affected, T increase but E2 decreased, that T increased only in men with low T to begin and then there’s some who saw a modest ~10% increase in E2. Guess it’s very individual.

One also have to take into account that some people get increased progesterone and progesterone increase ER expression. And also the fact we lower androgens by quite a lot, which means the androgen to estrogen ratio get skewed even if our estrogens are in normal range.

I’d be careful with this one. I’ve used it and my dick got worse. Then I found this and it pretty much explained it. In contrast, pycgenol-treated animals showed a decrease in relative weight of the prostate and DHT concentration in the serum and prostate. Which shows that Pycgenol is a decently strong 5ARI.

#19

@Cbrandel Thanks alot for the info on pycgenol. Skipping that one then.
I think the reason E2 rises is because of DHT’s action in balancing out E2. Without DHT levels of E2 are higher. I don’t know the exact mechanism but it’s known in the bodybuilding community that proviron works as a mild AI as well.
Here are two studies describing this from two aspects in more depth:

  • h ttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6645492/ (cannot post link)
  • h ttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6542571/ (same)
#20

AI = aromatase inhibitor.

From your 2nd link:

  • Thus, the antiestrogenic effect of androgen in mouse breast may be the result of effects of dihydrotestosterone on the estrogen receptor.

This is why Proviron work as an “AI”. It doesn’t inhibit aromatase, but rather increase the amount of free DHT (and T).

Estrogens, Progesterone, Prolactin and IGF1 are all working together to induce gyno.

On the other hand androgens (especially DHT) work against them to suppress gyno.

That’s why some people get teen gyno, their T and DHT isn’t low and estrogens aren’t high. But IGF1 is through the roof maybe and that induces gyno.

However, in pubertal gynecomastia, the majority of adolescents have normal estrogen levels.

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#21

Thanks for explaining :). Also:
“These findings suggest that the mechanism of DHT antagonism of estrogen effect in this organ system does not involve inhibition of synthesis of estrogen receptor as has been shown for progesterone, but appears to occur by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding ” (from the second link)

#22

35 days pfs:
Mental

  • People seem to laugh when I’m angry.
  • I can’t state something and stand behind it without getting uncomfortable.
  • I talk way too much irl and on social platforms. I seem to be responding 4-5 times the amount that other people repsond to me.

Physical

  • Gyno is getting worse
  • Body odor is less and more acid/sour and voice is getting a higher pitch.

Developments
tiredness is somwhat is less, mentally i’m somewhat sharper, testicular pain is less. Dick works but not on visuals failed nofap again, and every time I do it seems to worsen my dick function for days. Hair still getting denser. Getting used to all the weirdness, and people around me as well. Which isn’t necessarily good. I can take some more accountability.

Compared to pre fin I seem to be somewhat stronger and have strength increases, less sweat when working out, and less offen out of breath when lifting. Still gaining weight while not even trying to bulk. Metabolism is definitely still screwed, i used to eat alot to bulk up, eith a notmal diet I woulf losd weight. Didn’t have hypothyrodism or fast metabolism,
Just normal. Right now I don’t have to try and I gain weight, even skipping meals does have an effect but not much.
Part of it maybe water retention @Cbrandel but for the most part its fat.

Most of the improvements are more related with me just moving on with life and all limitations, then recovery.

Protocol hasn’t changed, still on all the stuff except for astragalus which I have to buy. The recent increase in Raloxifene isn’t ideal. It can cause deep vein trombosis, although chances are low.

Going to get 2-3 months Rhodiola supply today

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#23

Just took a pill Rhodiola Rosea 250mg.

Later found it works against BPH, and is as effective as Finasteride in reducing 5 AR effectiveness. Read more here.

I don’t know how this will go, but I expect to be even more f up after this. Make sure you read up all about a supplement or medication before taking it is my advice.

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#24

38 days pfs:
Physical:
Body hair is visibly increasing. Getting darker tinted hair on the shoulders, these where just white before. Can’t say if that’s still because of the minoxidil use 6-8 weeks ago (which I quit when I quit fin) or because of the creatine use. Could be a good sign. Still taking about 7-10g Creatine daily.
_ Strength numbers seem to increase still. Also squat numbers. Breathing when lifting changed (since haven taken fin). I was out of breath easily before fin, now I don’t have any issues doing the same weight and more. Aftewards I notice my heart is pounding and I need to breath more, but it’s not that I’m almost fainting because of the heavy lifts. I can easily dring a glass of water right after. Could be strength related, could also be breath related.
_ Breathing also changed when not lifting. It seems as if my body isn’t as active anymore, as if it goes on standby earlier, which preserves energy I think.
_ Gyno still getting worse. Not getting fatter, hunger signaling is better. And effect of caffeine as well.
_ Something in my hip region changed. As still did fat distribution, I don’ have a lot of it so its not that noticable.

Mental:
The masculine essence is not what it was. It’s there, but it’s not.
_ But whenever I see myself in vids or pictures it’s clear as day I’m definitely not the same person.
_ Seeing my eyes and face is less disturbing, but partly still very much so. Relationships with family, friends and colleagues changed. The dynamics I mean. The way I relate to them as well. But the objective parts will stay. They are my friends, they are my family.

Sexual:
Penis sensitivity changed has changed since fin. It’s not gone. Testicular size is probably the same. Notice no changes.

Daily protocol:
Added fish-oil, I expect no drastic changes. Astragalus needs to be ordered, as does citrulline. No changes otherwise, soon I’ll have new blood work and the protocol will change.

  • 1000 mg NAC
  • 1500 mg L-tyrosine
  • 3g glycine
  • coffee equating to 500-600mg caffeine daily
  • zinc 12,5mg tablet
  • magnesium glycinate 100mg
  • 5g-10g creatine
  • GABA whenever headache becomes too much (barely headaches)
  • L-theanine for sleep whenever needed.
  • fish oil 500mg tablet (added)
  • 60mg raloxifene instead of 15, bc gyno (60 from 30)
  • Citrulline Malate 2:3 9g for NOS (added)
  • Taurine 500mg (added)
  • Astragalus 3*450mg daily

other:

  • About 2-5 beers a week.
  • Resistance training

Keep you up to date.

EDIT:
Minor addition observations 1 day later:

  • Focus is better compared to weeks before
  • More grounded "
  • Rarely have headaches instead of multiple times a week
  • Hunger signalling is stronger or I’m more sensitive to less signalling compared to last week, functional improvement
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#25

39 days pfs:
Tested my E2. Came back yesterday relatively high for my normal levels, but in still in range.

Results:
E2 113.3 pmol/l (41.0 - 157.0) (≈30.8 pg/ml)

Last time a week before Finasteride it was 67.9 pmol/L (≈18.5 pg/ml). (Comfirmed more then once to be around that level normally.)

Raloxifene causes a slight raise, but it doesn’t account for a 68% increase.

#26

40 days pfs:
Adams apple seems to decrease in size significantly. Voice is still pitching high.

Just 6 weeks. Since quitting Finasteride. the damage this drug induces keeps surprising me day after day.

Are there any success stories reverting this?

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#27

I made an own post about my Adam apple and my larynx getting weak

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#28

You’ve tried any remedies?

#29

No, did you?

#30

Nothing that worked to alleviate this unfortunately. Because I don’t know what causes it. I do believe a lack of dht is at the cause of it.

#31

deleted

@Exsexgod hi man, sorry, could you dm me? I’ll send it to you and explain

deleted the full story, and edited it.

45 days pfs:

Mental :
I’m extremely self conscious. Masculinity hasn’t returned. More feminine, no improvement. Taking responsibility is an issue. It’s easy to let all of it slide of the shoulders. I don’t feel guilt towards myself regarding it anymore. Issues with self reliance as well.

Physical:
Physical sides are better. Gaining muscle seems to go better, although I can hardly care about it. Erections come slow and go fast. Still on nofap. Skin not restored: dry and lack natural oiliness, body hair is growing but is thin. Veins in hands thin and more hidden.

My thoughts being on this forum and reading on it every single day for the last 1,5 month:

  • 43 days visited
  • 3d read time
  • 770 topics viewed
  • 8.8k posts read
  • 108 hearts given
  • 15 topics created
  • 152 posts created
  • 97 hearts received

Certain things are unexplainable besides brain changes or epigenetic changes.

I’m also at a stage where it seems pointless to keep updating this thread. I have no hope things will ever restore, even though there are some possible remedies available through androgen receptor modulation, dht supplementation, and or dopamine upregulation. I’ve read most interesting threads on here and talked with some of you. You are nice people.

My hopes are non existent, I’m merely going to try some things to check them off my to do list, and then know for 100% certain even the pharmaceuticals that seem are most rational and logical, won’t ever change me back to the person I was. Why? Because I can’t live in the perpetual maybe. I’d rather know now that it won’t cure me, because these things are the only things I have some very slight uncertainty about.

There’s no logical explanation to me other then Finasteride having caused endocrine disruption. Which caused changes in gene expression and or brain changes and or epigenetic changes possibly by dna methylation. This might have changed androgen receptor transcription, and estrogen receptor transcription, and probably altered brain function and pathways. This would explain why hormone levels alone don’t help to bring change. It explains the study to gene expression changes. It explains the variety of side effects that people report. People might improve by trt or exogenous dht, but the way the brain responds to it is not the same as pre-fin.

The source might be dna methylation, but it might also not be. We don’t know. It’s like curing cancer. We can’t, and we won’t be able to soon. And what by a one in a million chance we could… What will happen then?

We now experienced what life is like, being this weird whole different kind of person (speaking for people with the same issues as me). And it’s forming us in this new person, it’s not as if you can forget it, and became like you were before. As if nothing ever happened, or as if you had a time machine. That won’t ever be possible. The only thing that might happen, is that some things will go back to how they were, but you won’t ever experience them like you did back then, because you now have this knowledge of being this extremely different altered person. What probably will happen then, is that you will feel even more separated from your true self, something some of you already experienced post pfs. Because after possibly crispr or something, you might feel your back, but at the same time the perception you had of yourself can’t ever be like it was when you hadn’t took fin, because you’ve experienced being this whole different kind of human being.

Well, if you lost me, I don’t really care. I hope you understand, to help you out, but otherwise, well, you’ll probably find out some other way.

I believe most recoveries here are simply people getting used to sides after x amount of months or years, and accepting to live with it. Maybe some things will improve, like did mine, but I won’t ever be the same person, and I think I have to live with the pile of s I made myself become by crossing the line, and taking this medicine.

It all sounds terrifying maybe, and extremely dark. But I’m not here to help you keep up hope that isn’t there. Maybe it’s best to just accept our faith, and see what good life still has to offer. By focusing on what we don’t have and lack, we’re making ourselves more miserable by the day. But by trying to accept what we can’t change, we’ll probably start to feel better.

So, I’ll probably stop updating this thread, unless I find anything that’ll help the potentially permanent mental f up fin has caused. To maybe help you guys out.

But the long story short, we probably have to accept that this is the way we have to live our lives until the end of our days. Probably better to get used to it.

I guess if you don’t take this well, you can just write this off as my opinion. It’s just my opinion anyway. This message isn’t meant to hurt anyone. It’s more of a way to tell the truth as I see it with the knowledge I have, and I’m eager to be proven wrong.

If you have questions or comments or arguments other then, some day, let me know, I’d like to believe the opposite. If you have more personal questions, please send a dm. thanks.

To give some hope after this dark post, I’ll list some sides that got resolved:

Metabolism is very slow. Eating the exact same 2300 calories daily, which was my maintenance. This is now causing an increase in bodyweight. At first finasteride caused an extreme lack of hunger, to the point of being able to not eat for a whole day with only getting some slight signals of hunger at the end of the day.

  • Subq fat is declining a bit it seems, veins on muscles are more visible.
  • Derealization occurs much less often
  • People are more comfortable around me, a bit too much so.
  • Metabolism seems to have stabilized, it’s slower, but not as slow as it was. Stopped gaining weight.
  • Nofap seems to improve my groundedness, focus, alertness and purposefulness to a degree
  • There is some sense of responsibility, but it’s extremely weak, weaker then I can afford.
  • Hunger signaling is better, as is response to caffeine
  • I seem to have no bowel issues, something I was worried about, and talked about with @NewYorker
  • I’m somewhat better at having arguments then I was before.
  • Waking up has become easier.

Please do take into account that the body needs time to readjust to lack or overdoses of stimuli, as does the mind to mental changes. I can’t say to what extend the above are actual improvements, or getting accustomed to this new way of being. Either way, can’t say it’s negative. And I’m happy with it.

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