Watch out for *anything* that might be effecting your hormone levels

General Discussion
#1

I’ll write more about my rocky and ongoing road to recovery soon, but I just wanted to post a realization I had recently… whatever the long-term effects of Finasteride are, they seem to sensitize the body to anything that effects androgens, even in the slightest.

After quitting Finasteride, I still hadn’t quite learned my lesson, and thought I could get away with topical treatments for my hair… assuming that the chance of systemic side effects would be nonexistant. Maybe this is true in a normal user, but we’ve got a different body chemistry now, and seemingly innocuous things (Revivogen, Eucapil, curcumin) send me right back into side effect hell.

So be extra careful about what you’re adding to your body at this delicate stage. Even so-called side-effect-free substances might actually be perpetuating your problems!

#2

Funny you should mention this, I tried Revivogen a number of months back and found within a few days I began having dizzy spells and feeling very out of it.

Since it is a topical which is likely absorbed systemically, and the ingredients are known inhibitors of both types of 5AR, I don’t doubt that it does have an effect. I quit using it and within 2 days no longer had the effects.

I plan on trying it again over the next week to observe if these side effects return.

#3

I have the same issue Been using Revivogen Topical after coming off propecia.

Used it Yesturday Night and have been out of it all day today, (Concentration)

I will not apply it tonight and see what is going on tomorrow.

#4

Topical treatments definately have systemic effects, the proof was the last time i had my blood drawn,the same morning i washed my head with revivogen shampoo only(have not used the lotion).

My Dht on the results i got back was 53 pg/Ml (94-476 ref range)

testosterone on the other hand was rather high 29.7 nmol/L (9.40-33.00)

Cant simply explain this to my self, this is just to tell you that it is blatently wrong that topicals have no systemic absorbation.
I’m gonna have to get my blood drawn again to have clearer results,as soon as i do i’ll post them in hormone section.

In the meantime im going to go off all shampoos or lotions as they may not be helping recovery.

#5

I’m currently using xandrox, which contains azelaic acid and I can honestly say I have no side effects. Not only that but I use paul mitchell’s tea tree shampoo that rockin said fucked him up. I’ve only begun using it after I recovered, but so far nothing has happened to me cause of it. I guess it might be a genetic sort of thing that some people are just more sensitive to some stuff than others…

As crazy as it sounds I actually have a little dropper of spironolactone on the way to me. I really hope that it doesn’t fuck up the success I’ve gained so far, but I doubt it.

#6

So you still believe there is a way back from this hell? I would like to believe it too. The problem is that I know to much about the subject right now. I explained it in a different topic.

Do You know where this supersensivity of DHT supression comes from?

Imagine if you have only a little DHT/5AR in your brain left how would your body react to any, even the slightest DHT inhibitor?

In such case even Revivogen or a Saw Palmetto shampoo makes your sexualty competely dead, from being semi-dead before applying it.

You know. If there were a possibity in the medical clinics to massure 5AR genetic expressin in brain tissue, Merck and Glaxo would be a complete bunkrupt afterwards, with a 1 bilion of dolars of our each account present after this devastating damage it has done to us.

Brain DHT/5AR is almost dead. The rest you have from time to time when your condition is better (when you avoid alkohol…etc) comes from your liver and kidneys sector.

When you try to masturbate or perform some week sex these little amounts of DHT enters your brain through the blood streem. But you do not have enough DHT/5AR in your brain by itself… and you probably won’t any more…

I hope some day these companies will pay the price they should for destroying our lifes.

I would rather concentrate now on finding if there is a labolatory/company synthesizing 5 alfa reductase enzyme type 2. If there is any what could possibly do this to our condition. Would it make it any better. What would be the bioavailability of having 5AR enzym injected. How long would it possibly work to support required conversion of Testosteron and Progesteron… to DHT, 5alfaprogesteron, allopregnollon…etc.

You know what makes me feel really angry,… is the fact that I am completely right. Damn!

#7

This is interesting. There was another poster talking of such things shampoo affecting his hormones. It was Tea Tree oil and Lavender oil in some studies. He’s a posted in the recovery section. I don’t know how to link the post but he said he believes his hormones were altered by his shampoo and now he’s better. He hasn’t posted in sometime so maybe he’s fully better now?

I will look to see all my topical agents when i go home tonight.
thanks!

#8

This extra sensivity theory is a bullshit. I am sorry for being rude, but this super sensitivity is due to the hormonal deficiency. I asume it is 5AR/DHT.

When you have only a little DHT left, what happens when you add any topical, herbal orals. Then total defficiency occurs due to its general poor bioavailability.

It is easy to test. Simply give up all your hairloss treatments (if any of them are present), and watch what happens with your body. Can you regain your DHT functions back again? I doubt it.

I remember some time ago I used to belive that is has something to do with hypersensivity because I simply did not realize/ did not even wonder if 5 alfa reductase could be damaged by those poisonous pills. Now I must admit I am propably 5 alfa reductase deficient/ as some of you with this “hipersensivity” too…

Cheers

#9

I am not bothered by your comment. It was not rude in any manner.
I was simply curious to the topical agents cuz after many searches I have read of several people impacted by such occurances. I have read about several other people who have traced their irregularities in hormones to topical agents. I also saw the same poster from here on several other sites explaining his discovery and it was well noted from others. I saw it on Dr. Weil’s site where others supported his explanation of such issues. He put pictures on the other sites also that were same from here and it shows such improvement in physique that I am convinced it’s a possiblity.

Good discussion, let’s keep it going.

#10

majkellos, you’re wrong.

Alot of us have increased DHT and finasteride only inhibits 5AR type II. The
brain only exhibits type I. It is true that while on the drug allopregnenolone levels decrease but if DHT rebounds as it does then it is most probable that allopregnenolone does something similar. Your theory does not hold up and you’re worrying yourself even more so.

#11

First.

Both types of 5 alpha reductase are present in a brain, but it is believed that type 1 plays much more important role there because it is more directly associated with the correct neurotransmission.

Second.

If Finasteride/Dutasteride does not devastate DHT in a long run, so how could you explain long time overexpression of progesteron in many subjects including myself many months/years after the treatment.

Long lasting progesteron upregulation after the treatment seems to be the sign of inability to be metabolised via 5 alpha reductase. 5AR is crucial for this convertion, so my thoughts get straight to the theory that there is a devastating influance of Fina/Dut on cellular expression and the partial cell death is also possible.

#12

All i’m saying is your theory doesn’t match up with everyone. I have high DHT and otherwise normal blood results as of yet. Hairloss is faster than ever and still no real sexual function. Scalp is constantly covered in sebaceous oil - i can’t shake it. Type 1 reductase is in sebaceous glands - thats a link. BUT i can’t say it is directly related. We all relate what we learn to ourselves - we cherry pick. My genitalia have not returned to normal which scientifically i do not understand. Vision still messed up(dry, light sensitive). And mind functions differently throughout the day. Poor quality sleep . Feel best in evening. All of us are affected in different ways. The only process to recovery is by the process of elimination i think and belief. If you don’t believe you’ll succumb to it. By looking at other examples from the guy with GHB to people who over time got better (which i’m sorry to hear you haven’t) to people who had success with things like dermacrine sustain - different approaches work. I hope you get better. Finasteride does inhibit both isoforms. When stopping the body got thrown out of balance on all sides. But it seems upregulation or downregulation of receptors has occurred in me and whether only one is overactive is a question for me. Anyway i babble.

#13

Your example sounds completely different to me and is quit not understood.

If you have a positive feedback from your receptors site (sebum, continues hairloss) then it means your body receptors still metabolise testosteron/progesteron via 5 Alpha reductase. There are no separated body parts that react differently to the same hormons. In your case the least propable is what in my case is almost certain.

My case so as many others is associated directly with some inability to metabolise testosteron and progesteron to its final metabolites via 5AR. We no longer get any feedback from receptors. There is a lack of sebum and hairloss does not resume or is slowed down radicaly.

Our cases are directly associated with androgen expression and ensymatic activity.

To be honest I cannot imagine how anyone with loads of dht, dihydronorprogesteron, allopregnolon doing fine could have any libido/erectile problems.

Maybe your problem is a progesteron deficiency. It could theoriticaly happen after finasteride treatment.

Lack of progesteron might even boost your hairloss to a certain extend in even more powerfull manner then your pre-treatment state.

Remember that healthy man also produce a little of progesteron, which naturaly inhibits 5 alpha reductase.

In case of a post-treatment progesteron deficiency there is a need for progesteron cream therapy.

#14

Something that’s interesting is that I actually have never been able to grow a handlebar moustache until all this finasteride shit happened.

An effect of rebounding DHT perhaps?

#15

You mention the Tea tree oil a few posts back. Tea tree oil is actually a weak anti-androgen.

Also, I noticed in this thread and others where people have mentioned about gene-expression and finasteride preventing it. Now would it make sense that now that the finasteride is gone, the genes will once again be able to “express” themselves when they give instructions for new cells to be constructed? And that in this, there is hope for recovery?

#16

Jake, I can only say this as an observation, because of what I experienced back when I had Norwalk virus (puking bile constantly for 7 hrs straight every 15 mins, plus diahrrea, dehydrated, went to hospital and got IV with saline injection for rehydration) 1.5 yrs ago for 2 days and experienced a brief semi-recovery in terms of libido/size/erectile ability, which then went back to Pre-Finasteride state after recovering from said virus.

Thus, if my body was able to spontaneously recover during that brief period, obviously genes have not mutated/5AR enzyme has not been disabledby the drug.

Rather, I believe it to be a metabolic or hormonal issue, and especially tied to the liver as the liver is a known site of steroid and drug metabolism, as well as 5AR/DHT synthesis… thus undergoing that experience gave me new hope that this is NOT permanent after all – just need to figure out WHY I recovered during that period, and HOW to make it a permanent recovery.

On the other hand, as crazy as it might sound, the thought has crossed my mind as to wether it was the saline injection, and NOT the virus, that caused the improvement… I really doubt it, but who knows.

#17

I recently found out that most guys (including myself) have permanent effects after messing up with tablets/capsules.

My problem started directly after crushing Dutasteride capsule and licking its liquid. Most of guys taking fin reported having porblems after crashing and swallowing tablets.

Maybe the substance that the tablet is coated with is made to prepare the substance to be slowly metabolized through the system.

When the tablet is crashed then the active substance works immiedietly starting from being supressed by your tongue.

This is just a thought, but I had no serious problem with popping original propecia without crashing it. Then I swithed to Dutasteride the problem actually occured when I crashed gelatine capsule and licked it.

Maybe the immiediate kick that the active substance does might play some important role.

Cheers.

#18

I had no idea tea tree oil was an anti-androgen. Has anyone other than rockin had negative effects from this? Big Softie, how often do you use the shampoo?

I’ve been using tea tree oil a lot as of late. I have seborrheic dermatitis. I was looking for an alternative to corticosteroids and read that tea tree oil was effective. So I have it in my shampoo, conditioner, face wash, moisturizer. I even use pure tea tree oil at times. It seems to help in case anyone else has SD. Maybe I’ll cut down a bit as a precaution.

#19

Tea Tree Oil is not an anti-androgen, it is estrogenic:

Lavender and Tea Tree Oils May Cause Breast Growth in Boys
nih.gov/news/pr/jan2007/niehs-31.htm

#20

Thanks for the correction about the tea tree oil.

I had been doing well for awhile, but now I’m back in the fog of brain fog and no energy. I suppose I’m sercretly hoping that if I cut out all androgenic substances, I’ll finally spring back to normal. Here’s hoping this isn’t something truly permanent.