Very cautious Taper off / Wean off Finstar--> HOW? Dissolving, Crushing, Splitting etc?

General Discussion
#1

Hi everyone,

first post, great that such a large self-help community exists and my empathy to everyone that suffers here.

I have taken FIN for 3.5 years now and want to quit this ASAP as I am super scared of getting permanent damage from it and very shocked the more I read about it. I do have some typical, minor to medium side-effects. I have taken 0.5mg for the past 8 months and 0.25mg since two weeks.

After everything I have read so far, especially the theory about “Silenced Androgen Receptors” http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2010/msg-19273-027408800%201282061244.ipb - I believe it is best to slowly get off the pill for the body to recalibrate itself rather than quitting cold turkey. The question is, over which time-span and which dosages? Continuous doses each day? Or On/off? I have read recommendation to follow the recommendation for SRRIs anti depressants to reduce the active ingredient by 10% per week from the base, meaning a 10 week wean-off phase. But is that careful enough? Read on another forum that an andrologist weans off over a course of two years with high-tech lab equipment… Given the difficult flat response finasterid inhibition curve it seems most important to slowly reduce from 0.2mg to 0mg as that is where the ingredient shows noticeable reduction in the blood serum. Which brings me to the main problem:

How do I “mechanically” do the microdosing of the pills? It becomes physically impossible to just cut the pill in smaller parts after 0.25mg and precisely create 0.2, 0.18, 0.16mg … pills. The 1mg pill itself (using the brand FINARISTO) has a weight of 124mg, meaning 1mg of Finasterid inside that pill is extremely little given the whole mass and making me question whether microdosing is even physically possible or more like a roulette because even with perfectly precision-weighted pill parts you never know how much of the active ingredient ended up in that little part.

  • To me there are two ways to microdose: Splitting/Crush and weighing the pill or dissolving it in alcohol for more exact measurements and than counting drops in the end. What is the best approach?
  • Do we know whether the 1mg Finasteride is evenly distributed in each part of the pill?
  • Do we know whether cutting a pill into pieces will cause the active ingredient to oxidate/react and be less after several days?
  • Is it possible to crush and grind the pill and then weigh it down to 0.02mg parts and less or is no pharmaceutical lab that is somewhat accessible for us private people able to do this? Assuming this would even work because the active ingredient is evenly distributed in the pill?
  • Is it possible to dissolve the whole thing in alcohol for easier dosing?
  • If yes which alcohol
  • how to store the solution, how long is it good to use?
  • Will it be evenly distributed in the liquid just by shaking it before using a syringe to take the exact amounts out?
  • Can the alcohol be sucked from a spoon danger-free or is too strong (e.g. Ethanol, Isopropanol…) and will harm the mouth and internals? Okay to squirt the amount from a syringe into a glass of water and drink that?
  • Again, in which schema would you dose over which time-span to minimize risks for the body?
  • Is it a bad idea to do weight training while dosing off?

If none of this works I will just have to split into really smart parts using sand paper and doing a purely visual measurement of the size. I hope you guys can help me, shitscared to get/have PFS and right now just looking for an answer how to move on so I can get my mind off this topic and stop continuously examining myself and going crazy.

Thank you a lot!

Guide to quitting Finasteride in 2018: Wean off or cold turkey? Any suggestion is welcome
#2

I think it is reasonable to taper for another 12-18 months in your case, since you have already been on a taper for the past 8 months, and since you haven’t taken the drug for too many years.

The 10% in ten weeks tapering schedule for antidepressants is ridiculously fast. Who-ever proposed or is advocating that is fatally misguided (unless the drug was taken for merely months). Neither the serotonin receptors nor the mind can adapt so fast. But that’s an entirely different system, although still dealing with receptors of some sort.

I think it is OK to take fin only twice a week. That can give you another mechanism for reducing the dose.

Good luck!

PS. The link doesn’t work.

#3

Hi @Saro49,

First of all it looks like you’ve done some homework regarding the pharmacology. The steep portion of the finasteride dose response curve is between 0.05 and 0.2, as you are aware. You also seem aware that while sides usually present on the drug, PFS in most cases onsets after cessation.

It is my observation from reading the stories of pretty much every case across this forum and elsewhere, including reading many accounts from the families of severe cases, that those suffering a broader symptom profile and greater degree of mental and physical debilitation are more often those who have taken finasteride for a very short time relatively (including myself). So I would remain optimistic your sides will abate when you cease taking it, which the odds are significantly in your favour for anyway.

Do bear in mind there is no evidence to support that tapering will make a difference. I personally would not hypothesise it would. If it’s something you wish to pursue I would not expect it to be possible to create an accurately dosable solution yourself from the tablet because of how powerful finasteride is in relatively tiny concentrations. It’s probably best to discuss with a legitimate store selling liquid formulation or a laboratory who can prepare it in such a dilution that you’d be able to dose in steps down from 0.2mg. Many of the solutions I’ve seen sold are much higher per ml so unless you can find something off the shelf I think you’d have to ask a lab for this. Regarding storage, I have not seen the need for refrigeration of the liquid solutions the peptide stores sell, so I’d guess it’s pretty stable.

This is of course a site for those suffering the persistent effects of antiandrogenic drugs to connect and share experiences, so there’s very little you can expect here. All the best and good luck with stopping finasteride.

[Urgent] I am 24 days in. Just found out about PFS. WTF? Should I drop it immediately? Does it make any difference anymore?
#4

Tapering Finasteride,

Or just buy topical fin if you’re serious about trying to taper

#5

Thank you everyone.

@Sibelio
The link works for me? Open in Google Chrome like a PDF. Its the theory that the androgen receptors receive a shock when they are suddenly flooded with 330% more testosterone / DHT then they were used to after stopping the drug suddenly, which causes an exotoxic reaction / autoregulatory response and the receptors to shut down / silence.
What makes you think that 12-18 months is the right amount of time? Seems very long to me given that most people seem to naturally recover within 6-12 months after quitting hard, I was thinking 6 months for me. I have actually not really been on a taper, given that at 0,25mg the drug has almost the same effect than at 1mg. If the tapering takes so long, doesn’t that in itself also increase the risk of PFS symptoms again, as you are still taking and inhibiting it?

One of the most interesting post here on the forum:

Basically a neuroendocrinology Phd research scientist successfully tapered off properly and slowly with lab equipment, he also posted some details. He reduced by 0.01mg within 4-5 days, so quite quick compared to your suggestion.

What I dont unterstand is your comment “its okay to take FIN only twice a week” in connection to 12-18 months taper. Doesnt this cause the body to be weirded out as well? No inhibition for several days, all of a sudden a strong inhibition, then no inhibition again the following day? Sounds dangerous to me (Yes, aware that it takes 7 days to take effect in the blood, but that is only part of the story isnt it?)

@axolotl

Thank you for your words of optimism as well, its easy to freak out (which I did initially). So far I had no luck with pharmacies regarding creating doses for me… They just don’t want to do it, irregardless of whether they possibly could.

Where can I buy topical FIN? It was my assumption that so far people have mixed this privately @axolotl @lbv

#6

Hasson and Wong sell topical fin I think, google them, some Canadian company.

If I were you I would just quit right now.

#7

Check out my (slightly more detailed) comments in the thread posted above (tapering finasteride). I will try to write more later. Obviously this is a controversial topic.

#8

Believe me, I would love to stop taking it immediately, but it does not feel like a smart thing to do, neither from my gut feel nor from what I have learned so far from a scientific point of view. I want to give my body and and the receptors the chance to readjust slowly. The only thing that is speaking against that, is that some people have gotten PFS while still on the drug, but since everyone reacts differently it also only has limited weight. I nonetheless feel its safer to taper off and this is also the official recommendation from this site.

Hasson & Wong seemed to have discontinued their sale of topical fin.

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#9

Oh I didn’t know they discontinued, they had something else in the works, liposomal fin or something like that, look that up.

Yeah dude people get PFS while on it, if you stay on it for months longer you’re adding more risk that way. If your sides aren’t that bad they probably won’t get worse if you quit, it’s hard to say though.

#10

A little update, found a doctor that would prescribe a microdosing according to my specification (over several months, keep each dose for a week, start at 0,2mg) and found a pharmacy that is doing the microdosing. They are ordering pure finasteride and then create their own capsules in a more complex process. But I can be sure the dosages are correct and that there will be no oxidation issue etc. They are NOT just taking my finasteride pills and crush and weigh them. So very happy I finally get to taper off properly, will report back with results. If you want to do the same I suggest you go to a very large pharmacy, ideally one that is right next to a university clinic and is often doing customized formulations for patients. I am paying this privately as the health insurance likely won’t cover it or it will delay the process considerably, but my health is more important. Paying close to 500 Euro.

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#11

Hello Saro!

May I ask what country do you live? I’m also in Europe. Would you mind sharing what pharmacy was able and keen to make this solution for you? Those ultra small dose of finasteride capsules? I’m thinking, since they already did that, maybe they could make it for me too.

I know this is just a theory but it makes kinda sense.

I’m a finasteride user of 12 years. I thought I don’t have side effects but they crept on me slowly and since I was uninformed I didn’t know to account them to finasteride… I already quit once, but my doctor insisted it’s safe to continue, so I went back on it (stupid). I want to quit the most safe way possible now.

It’s 4 months since this post. How it has been working out for you?