Topical DHT blocker causes relapse? Any Ideas?

General Discussion
#1

Hi,

I was well on the road to recovery with very few flare up’s for about six months mostly through a healthy lifestyle and forcing myself to go to the gym 5 times a week.

However I recently purchsed some minoxidal 5% and 12.5% from the Belgravia Centre in the UK (up until then I was using Regaine foam) which both claim to contain DHT blockers (Regain does not) about 8 weeks ago. It was not long after I starte using this that I have had a flare up/relapse that has lasted nearly 2 months.

I’m no doctor however like most of use I have researched out condition and have a simple understanding of some of the processes involved.
For the more medically minded of you out there, is it possible that the topical DHT blockers have caused the relapse due to the fact that there is nowhere for my body to release the DHT naturally? I am now as of today going to switch back to Regaine for a few weeks to see how my condition is going - this is a little frustrating as I was doing so well, I would of said I was 90% of what I was before Propecia.

p.s - Has anyone had any experiance with smoking (normal cigarettes, not weed) easing their conditions? I smoke occasionally when I drink, and this seems to help - dont worry im not saying im going to take up smoking to cure my condition, im not that mad, just a question I was looking at asking you guys :slight_smile:

p.p.s - If anyone is interested in learning how I got to 90% better, ill gladly publish it, but as it obviously isnt a full recovery (yet - think positive guys) I dont want to give anyone false hopes.

#2

If there are DHT blocking ingredients (ie, 5AR inhibitors) in the topical Minoxidil solution, its possible they could have penetrated the skin and gotten into the bloodstream.

#3

Do they need to get to the bloodstream? The majority of 5AR enzymes (albeit mostly 5arI) are in the skin from what I understand. This is why testosterone gel/cream raises DHT more than injections.

checkoutthesurf. what was your protocol when you began to feel a lot better?

#4

I think even a topical solution can enter the bloodstream if applied frequently enough (correct me if im wrong guys), especially when minoxidil works by increasing the bloodflow to the applied area. But as I say, im no doctor so was just throwing the idea out there for discussion.

As for the protocol, I did the following when I started to feel better:

It was 18 months being off the drug before I began to feel myself again, however I tried various things to combat it. I have always lifted weights 5 times a week even when I was at my worst (all be it not as heavy as I used to before I became ill), but it was not until I was brave enough to do cardio again (too much exercise made me worse) that I started to feel better - I mostly used the concept 2 rowing machine for no more than 10 mins a day at an easy pace, about 25-28 strokes per min (if your not familar with rowing, about 35+ is racing speed). I chose rowing as this was the least impact on my groin, running tended to make my sympoms worse, even on a treadmill which have shock absorbers in them. However it was not for a number of months of the cardio and healthy eating that I started to feel better.

It may seem to be that i’m doing alot of exersise for someone that claims to be ill, but trust me, I litterally had to force one foot in front of the other to get to the gym some days.

With regards to my diet, there was no hard or fast rule that I went with, just eating the stuff that we all know is good for you - fruit, veg (lots of spinach), non processed meats (mostly chicken due to the fact I have a high protein diet anyway, including protein shakes, for my exersise program) I cut out caffiene completely and cut down on alcohol (but not completely, im human after all) and cut down on sugar (I only ate what was found naturally in foods like bananas, no cakes, choc etc) . I also took a few vitamins such as multi vitamins, omega 3 cod liver oil, co-enzyme Q10 200mg (these gave me quite alot of energy, but beware this high a dosage in one pill is pretty expensive, about £1 a day), saw palmetto (which ive stopped taking as of today in case its messing with my DHT). I was also taking pro-biotic yoghurts once a day.

I also tried but gave up on the following:

Long term anti-biotics such as cipro, fluxlocicilin etc - these just made me ill and tired.
The ‘Brocolli treatment’ for 3 weeks - its a pain to do and didnt solve my problem, however it did give me alot of energy.
Acupunture - again didnt clear the problem but did seem to give me some relief.

There are prob more things I did but cant think of them off the top of my head, hope this helps.

#5

Something similar happened to me 3 years ago. I had a skin problem, allergy, and was prescribed azelaic acid cream. I started feeling blurred vision and brain fog, but didn t link it to the cream. Only a week later reading about it on the web i found out it is also a 5 ar blocker and i immediately stopped it. It does enter the blood stream.

#6

How long after you stopped using the cream before you were feeling better?

#7

checkoutthesurf maybe your problems came from SAw palmetto. what dose you were using? was it 320 extract in soft gel capsules?

#8

It really is a shame that even once we think were out of the woods, something tiny like this can bring us back to hell.

#9

I was taking the Saw Palmetto for almost all the time I have been ill (nearly 2 years), it was only in the last two months when I started using the topical DHT blocker that the problems started. However to answer your question, the dosage was 450mg. As per the instructions on the following brand:

hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=135&prodid=572&cid=49&sid=0

Im still not feeling too good at the moment but at least ‘some’ of the symptoms as lessening.

#10

Oh and to clarify, the total dosage per day is 1800mg, 2 in the morning, 2 in the afternoon. I havent taken any for nearly a week now and am doubtful if I will again.

#11

Why would you take Saw Palmetto for 2 years knowing full well it is a 5AR1 and 5AR2 inhibitor? Or is this information you recently discovered?

#12

throw them in the garbage. it is poison. Law is very protecive to save these thugs who sell this stuff to innocent people.

#13

To be honest I recently discovered that it could be harmful like propecia, I was taking it for prostate health as this seemed to be where my problem was stemming from.

#14

Checkoutthesurf, do you have a member story so that we can see what you 90% recovered from? This may give alot of hope to others.

#15

I am pretty sure he just recovered like some people do within a year.

#16

My profile story as requested:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5217

#17

No sexual sides. Lucky for you!

#18

thats funny i dont feel lucky…but I know what you mean.

#19

checkoutthesurf - I hope you’re feeling better! Let us know how things have gone since you posted.

I am currently considering a regimen that includes azelaic acid, and I have been researching its pharmacodynamics (and the endocrinology of 5-alpha-reductase types 1 and 2) in depth. (NOTE: I am NOT a doctor, and I welcome any and all critique and skepticism). Very little azelaic acid is absorbed into the blood stream, and its systemic burden is negligible. In fact, common diets already expose most people to levels of azelaic acid that are equivalent to the traces found in blood stream after topical administration. To wit:

“Azelaic acid is a dietary constituent (whole grain cereals and animal products), and can be formed endogenously from longer-chain dicarboxylic acids, metabolism of oleic acid, and ψ -oxidation of monocarboxylic acids. Endogenous plasma concentration (20 to 80 ng/mL) and daily urinary excretion (4 to 28 mg) of azelaic acid are highly dependent on dietary intake. After topical treatment with AZELEX® Cream in humans, plasma concentration and urinary excretion of azelaic acid are not significantly different from baseline levels.”

So it seems unlikely that azelaic acid is having any SYSTEMIC effect. It is possible that by blocking local 5-alpha-reductase, you deplete your DHT-production capabilities, but this is seems very unlikely. Here’s why: there are two types of 5-alpha-reductase. Your scalp, the area you affect with a topical blocker, generally contains type 1. But your scalp isn’t the only place that houses 5-alpha-reductase type 1. Sebaceous glands and skin tissue all over your body also have it, as well as your brain. All of these would be unaffected directly by topical administration, and the trace amounts you do absorb would already have been present in similar levels had you been eating a diet that included commons elements like wheat or meats.

Again, I’m not a doctor, but this is what I’ve found. It might be possible that, were you a recovering post-finasteride patient, your receptor levels would be low enough to be affected by the serum level of azelaic acid following a topical administration - but if they were, you’d be feeling it from your diet anyway.

Regardless, I’d love to hear your current experiences. I’m in a similar boat - 85% to 90% recovered. I’m looking for non-5AR blockers to resume my hair loss treatment without destroying my endocrine system, and minoxidil+azelaic acid seem like a great combo, but you seem like a cautionary tale. I hope to see a response. Best.

#20

guys, ı warn you. Do not use any dht blockers .even ıt ıs topıcal. Our body ısnt capable and suıtable. do not use saw pallmetto which everybody say that ıts safe. It ıs a lıe. Do not use topıcal fınasterıde. Do not use procapıl. Do not use ru from kean. Do not use ghk, bıotnyl. Do not use ketokonazol, ketoral, nızoral. They are dht blockers whıch ı know so far. We must stay away all these stuffs.