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Hi Kaz
how is going you clomid treatment? did you use HCG prior to starting clomid. if not , why not? I think for best resuld ,HCG should be used 2-3 weeks to awaken your Testes and then launch clomid to counter low LH.
I am very interested in starting this protocol.
I will wait for your comments.
bostonusa2009,
I can get HGH from bodybuilders with a cost of 300-350 dollars per month, if i use 2 units per day. It’s a lot of money for sure (at least for me) but if it will improve my issues i would certainly pay.
Matis,
If you do go that route, can please be sure to share how your body responds to the HGH with us. I am going to see a new Endo this week. I expect he will want to run a new blood test.
THe last endo I saw was a dic. He refused to include HGH on the blood test. Since HGH is also a function of the pituitary gland, it would make sense that it would help us. I will have my HGH tested this time around, even if I have to pay out of my own pocket for it.
The sad thing is, I would be ecstatic to be able to pay 350 a month for HGH if it made me feel like my old self.
Any updates Dustin?
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Hi dustin,
Congrats to your stable progress.
I guess in your case supplementing testosterone might have made sense due to low readings, muscle wastage, testicular shrinkage… .
On the other hand I doubt that TRT is addressing the underlying cause for the ED but more compensating the symptoms. Testosterone is overrated in this regard in my eyes. A lot of people here have good testosterone readings, or even higher out of range and still suffer. If this was a clear cut testosterone issue many more people would have been fixed already.
From my own hormonal reading, which looks ok, I start doubting that our issues are mostly related to hormone levels themselves.
I am physically fit and have no mental issues, still low libido and ED.
Either, we do not correspond to them correctly or we are left with something neurological altered in our brains or where ever.
These are just my thoughts about it. Keep us updated how things are working out for you and good luck!
Take care
Hey Dustin,
Congratulations on having a fully working dick. I’m pleased for you.
I have a few points:
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If you’re taking 500mg T a week to achieve this, clearly the underlying problem has not been addressed. I personally require 60mg T a week to get to top of normal range. Supra T levels do have adverse effects (eg) on myocardium.
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E2 management is required. I assume you’re doing HCG too.
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Proviron improves my erections, and those of bodybuilders. It is a DHT. You should look into this. In light of current findings, you should probably get your Adiol G level checked when your T levels are within normal range.
I guess the theory is that you’re blasting so much T into your system to compensate for your defunct Type 2 reductase enzyme.
Whilst I’m happy for you (and it’s great to know that you can perform sexually), I think you should now look into addressing the REAL underlying issue (most likely to be a low Adiol G level, hopefully responsive to DHT supplementation).
Take care
JN
Dustin
How has it helped with other issues like muscle growth, mental acuity?
I would echo what JN said with regards to using hcg and an anti-estrogen like Arimidex. Have you thought about fertility, testes size?
What brand of T are you using and how do you inject?
Also you said:Propecia eliminated my ability to have spontaneous and morning erections. While on TRT and Cialis, I have both spontaneous and morning erections. On TRT alone, I have no sponatenous erections but weak morning erections.
When you say total ed do you just mean loss of libido or were unable to get hard at all via manual stimulation?
Sorry for all the questions and congrats. 
Hi Dustin
Great news that you’re doing well. I also have a few questions, just stuff that might help us understand more about what is going on.
Before I ask them, though, a quick point about the comments above, on whether you are “addressing the real issue” or not.
We need to think about what we mean by “addressing the real issue”. Let’s consider what we know about the issue. What we know is that, for some reason, post-fin guys can have normal serum T and DHT, but all the symptoms of hypogonadism. Somehow, our bodies are not using T and DHT normally.
That may be due to some kind of androgen insensitivity. It may be due to a malfunctioning 5ar II enzyme.
You’re seeing symptomatic improvement by taking high doses of T. So are you “addressing the real issue”? In the strictest sense, no. You are not changing the underlying fact that your body does not respond normally to androgens anymore. But you are overcoming that problem by supplying large amounts of T, with apparent success. That’s pretty much as close as we can get to dealing with this problem at the moment.
JN is advising that you stop this treatment, let your T return to normal levels, and then test your Adiol-G. But what, then, are you going to do if your Adiol-G comes back low? The answer to that is not clear.
JN suggests that you deal with your low Adiol-G by supplementing DHT. But we have no idea whether this will provide symptomatic improvement. You’d be swapping your current treatment, which is working, for a gamble.
Essentially, JN has become psychopathogically attached to the idea that DHT is “the cure”, in the same way that he was attached in 2006 to the idea that Proviron was the cure, and was attached, until recently, to the idea that HGH was the cure. His advice to you has got nothing to do with your own wellbeing, and everything to do with an attempt to continue perpetuating that fantasy in his own head.
OK, to my questions. Some might be similar to others that have been asked.
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Have you had testosterone and E2 tested? 500mg a week is a huge dose. Got to expect that your T and E2 are very high. It would be instructive to know what they are.
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Are you experiencing any estrogenic symptoms: chest pain, bloating, hot flashes? Are you taking Arimidex?
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Have you maintained other improvements that you mentioned TRT was bringing? Libido? Energy? Any improvement in muscle mass?
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Any other changes on TRT that you haven’t mentioned? If T is working, you’d expect to see androgenic effects such as thicker body hair, thicker facial hair, oilier skin, and of course hair loss.
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You tell us that your endo says your TRT dose is “typical for patients suffering ED from Propecia.” Does this mean that your endo has other post-fin patients on high dose TRT, and that this is working for them?
I’d really encourage you to get Adiol-G tested on this TRT regimen. OK, we don’t have a pre-TRT Adiol-G number. Still, if your Adiol-G came out decent, that would strongly suggest that (i) increasing T/DHT conversion in target tissue is a way to improve post-fin symptoms, and (ii) your high dose TRT is what has increased this conversion. In other words, that high dose TRT can help deal with post-fin syndrome.
Thanks, and hope all keeps going well.
Scaredmale,
Please try to be respectful. JN has been through a lot, along with me as well.
Listen, we are all trying to find the root cause here so the medical community can properly treat us and future victims of this poison.
Secondly, I give JN a lot of credit for trying various treatment options(some of have worked, and some haven’t). Using your body as a guinney pig and sharing it with us is very IMPORTANT to find the root cause of this problem.
We do know this however, many of us have similiar LOW Adiol-3G levels. I’m in the proces of getting tested for this as well. If we ALL do it, this will give us more credibility to other doctors.
We are making progress, lets continue with the momentum and work as a team. Believe me when I say this, Merck is viewing this board as much as we are. They are probably very worried and have their legal team trying to figure out a way to fight us. Refer to the many lawsuit/cases with their vioxx drug.
Finally, if TRT is working for you dustin and you feel good…by all means take it at your own discretion. Personally, I’ve had this option, but refuse to take it right now until there’s 100% clarity to what this drug did to us. If I can avoid taking it, I will avoid it. It’s a LIFELONG decision, so when JN commented on you taking it, he was only trying to help you out. He is a very intelligent and strong person, and I would take as information as I could from him and/or others on this board who are trying to get better.
We will prevail, and we will win.
Absolutely agree on that.
Anonnn1
I agree with pretty much everything you say.
Certainly it’s useful to use that JN and others have tried different treatments, and reported back on them.
It’s less useful, however, when JN becomes convinced that he has the “cure” to our problem, and starts to advise people on that basis.
No doubt JN has been through a lot; I think we all have.
I don’t know how well you know JN, but if you’ve had extensive correspondence with him, as I’ve had, it is clear that he is not entirely mentally stable. He is prone to construct fantasies around this problem that are fairly impregnable to any kind of reason. He’s pretty much admitted that himself.
For several months he told me on a regular basis that HGH was, without a shadow of a doubt, the cure to our problem. Across those months, I suggested that some form of androgen dysfunction plays a role; JN tended to become agitated and abusive at this suggestion. As you can see by reading his posts, a couple of months ago he suddenly dropped the HGH explanation. The very next day, he was telling me with absolute certainty - having read the news about Adiol-G - that DHT injections were the “cure”.
Now, maybe DHT injections are the cure, or a part of it. Who knows. But until we do know, it’s not a great thing to be tell people to stop treatments that are proving effective, and pursue DHT injections. Is this really advice that puts the wellbeing of the other person first? Or is it more simply an attempt - as with the Proviron emails, and the HGH emails - to shore up his own fantasy, and make himself feel better?
I don’t assign a great deal of blame to JN for this; clearly he is not entirely in control of his actions. But unfortunately he does tend to prey on the hopes of others in order to bring himself temporary mental relief.
As for not taking TRT until we have 100% clarity on all this, that’s one way of looking at this. Bear in mind that it is unlikely that we will ever have that clarity, and even if we do that is unlikely to point the way towards a better treatment. Yes, TRT is lifelong. On the other hand, you’ve already spent seven years in your current state. This life that you are protecting from a commitment to TRT is happening to you right now, and it won’t last forever.
Yes, this certainly makes sense. Dustin claims erectile function is normal with a very high dose of T. Ideally he should have a normal T level and have erectile function, agreed? A baseline Adiol G is necessary to ascertain if Type 2 enzyme dysfunction is the cause of his need for such massive doses of T.
Indeed, the answer on how to treat a low Adiol G level is not clear. Personally, I am encouraged by the anecdotal report of Josh Fuller improving with DHT injections. It is possible that his Adiol G was low (given 9 out of 9 LOW readings of Adiol G on this board). Added to this, the following trial indicated a ‘significant rise’ in urinary DHT metabolites when DHT injection was given.
clinchem.org/cgi/content/ful … e=clinchem
(This has previously been posted by Mew)
Also, Drostanolone (injectable synthetic DHT used by bodybuilders) has a 2 methylated group on the molecule which allows for good cell penetrance and resistance to 3 HSD enzyme, with resulting high accumulation of drug inside the cell cytosol. Drostanolone has 100% bioavailability. Bioavailability is defined as ‘the fraction of an administered dose of unchanged drug that reaches the systemic circulation.’
As I have stated, I notice good effects with Proviron (Mesterolone), an oral synthetic DHT. It has 3% bioavailability. Also, there a 1 methylated group on the molecule which makes it less resistant to 3 HSD enzyme, and less target tissue effect.
These factors make me optimistic that Drostanolone will have good effect.
It’s not a gamble. I’m sure Dustin is very encouraged that injecting 500mg T per week into his body gives him symptomatic relief. This, of course, is a reassuring fall back option. I am merely suggesting that a normal T level could give him the same excellent sexual functioning when administered with DHT injections, thus avoiding the side-effects of long term supraphysiological T.
I agree with you. That seems to be the way I operate through these confusing times. I think it’s called hope. Everyone has approached their suffering in their own ways. I have always been an optimist. For long periods of time over the last 9 years, I have deluded myself that I am ‘definitely’ heading down the right path to a cure. It has been an important means of survival to me. On numerous occasions, when I realise I have hit a wall (and that my current regimen will not work), I spiral into a pit of emotional despair where I become fraught with fear and anxiety. This lasts for 5 or 6 days, and slowly I am able climb out of it. It is truely horrible.
Some chaps, (ie) Mew, are able to remain more pragmatic and realistic.
Again, everyone copes differently.
As regards Proviron, I maintain it had a good effect on my erections.
As regards HGH, I maintain it gave me the ability to have good sex and play footie again at regional level. These were massive benefits for me. I genuinely thought that HGH was my cure as I had a low IGF 1 level (21 on a range 15 to 45) and subnormal IGF BP3 level (which has a stronger correlation with erectile function of 99 on range 120 to ?250). It was also the only abnormal parameter in my hormone panel. It took over 6 months to realise it was not my ‘cure’. Importantly, it allowed me to get a beautiful girlfriend, who I’m hoping to be with a long time.
I have apologised for the false hope I gave others. It was almost sinful. To return shouting my mouth off and taking hostage other men’s emotions, supplying false hope and retracting bold statements is a real regret, and I’m sorry. I can’t easily describe why I did. I’m sure there are many men on this forum who wouldn’t mind giving me a crack around the head, and I wouldn’t blame them.
I would like nothing more than for everyone here to make a full recovery and I won’t rest until this is the case.
I can only say I’ve fallen back in line and I hope I can be valuable in our fight to get better.
Scaremale30, I would appreciate no further hostility from you.
JN
Your a good man JN. I took a break from these boards for a few years, just like you did…We came back for a reason, to endure the fight, and help other new sufferers out.
I admire your ability to finish med school and achieve your doctorates degree admist all of this…I myself am in grad school, and will say it’s extremely hard to go through this, work, and finish advanced classes in school.
You are a great help JN, and most of us appreciate your wisdom and input. I believe some of just get frustrated at times because we haven’t found a cure, but we are getting closer.
One question, is Josh fuller, the person who was one of the first individuals who experienced side effects i beleive in 1999-2000 that reported it to Merck, and consulted with Dr. Shippen? If it is, man that dude has been through a battle even more than us…
Mew, could you step in here please? I won’t take attempts to assassinate my character lightly.
Clearly Scaredmale30 has a lot of anger issues, and it’s unfair to direct them at me, even subversively.
I want to move forward and be constructive.
Thanks
JN
Can Mew step in to what? Our conversation is pretty much finished anyway, isn’t it?
I’m making the observation that you tend to become delusional about “cures” to our problem. You seem to agree with me.
We only differ, then, on what Dustin should do next. You say that for him to stop TRT and follow your advice is not a gamble. It clearly is a gamble, because we have no idea (i) whether DHT injections will provide symptomatic improvement and (ii) whether when he re-starts high dose TRT it will have the beneficial effect it is having now. Probably when he re-starts, high-dose TRT will do the same thing: but given how little we understand about this and how unpredictable our reactions to hormones seem to be, does he want to risk that?
This is hardly an attempt to assassinate your character. Don’t become hysterical.
Guys, it’s important we keep things in perspective and our heads cool. We’re all in the same boat.
JN, as to your question for me to “step in”, I’m not sure what you want me to say or do. ScareMale did point out some things which have occurred in the past, and is presenting counter-arguments to your propositions. That in of itself is fine… although, the comments are open to interpretation in terms of tone.
Regardless, you did apologize in the post before the above, so I thought this issue was resolved: you accepted responsibility for your postings, and that is that. So I’m not sure what else there is to be said here, other than this turning into a flame war and derailing DUSTIN’s thread (which is the whole point of this thread).
On the other hand, ScaredMale, at times I interpret the tact with which you approach disagreements can at times be a bit overbearing and/or sarcastic. Let’s just keep things as professional as possible, in this regard.
Anyway guys, it seems to me this spat has been resolved based on the previous two posts, so let’s get back on track and let DUSTIN contribute to his own thread. JN has already apologized for his past actions, so in my mind this issue is dealt with.
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