the 'Phantom DHT' theory

There’s some good stuff here. Proscarred’s bad experience with grapefruit juice I don’t think goes against your theory Oscar as grapefruit juice is thought to increase estrogens more than testosterone therefore putting more weight on the estrogen side.

Makes me think though what if you inhibit the metabolism of estrogen and testosterone via grapefruit juice or another inhibitor whilst also taking an aromatase which stops testosterone being converted to estrogen. Therefore the balance should shift in favour of testosterone - that is if the liver idea is correct.

Also could you find some good info on symptoms of high or low estrogen in men as it is hard to find. Fatigue and sexual dysfunction is all can find for high estrogen which the majority of us have.

Yes, if the enzymes that are involved in the final metabolism of hormones are increased it will lead to a novel form of hypogonadism.

In fact it would lead to an incurable form of hypogonadism. In this thread I quote research papers showing that even when rats are being injected with test cyp it has no effect on their prostates if hormone metabolism is increased.

Hormone/xenobiotic metabolism includes: Phase 1, the deactivation of hormones by CYP450 3A4 and/or Phase 2, during which hormones are deactivated & made water soluble for excretion. The most important of these two in this theory is Phase 2 metabolism, where hormones are conjugated (combined) with sulfide or glucurinide. (and it is the sulfotransferase enzyme that is enhanced when metabolism is increased.)

This is true for various reasons:

1.Sulfunated hormones do not bind to SHBG - this may alter the true bioavailablity of testoterone because the Sulfunated hormones are unable to bind to the androgen receptor. (only a small amount of testosterone is normally conjugated at any on time)

  1. Sulfunated testosterone is a better substrate for 5aR than unconjugated testosterone (it is therefore a natural anti-androgen) (see; Hydrogenation of Testosterone Sulfate by the Δ4-3-Ketosteroid Reductase of Rat Liver Microsomes)

  2. The product of 5aR + Testosterone sulfate is DHT sulfate. The product of DHT Sulfate + 3aHSD will be 3aDiolS(ulfate) - not 3aDiolG(lurunide). Leading to low 3aDiolG.

  3. The literature suggests that the increased sulfotransferase enzyme is present not only in the liver but also in sex hormone dependent tissue.

Phase 1 metabolism is less important, but it can at least also lead to decreased bioavailabilty of thyroid hormones. (so this mechanism could cause ‘brain fog’ etc).

There are problems with this theory.

  1. If the bioavailabilty of testosterone was substantially decreased, more people would notice muscle loss. However, testosterone sulfate is a better 5aR substrate than normal testosterone and also the sulfotransferase enzyme may be increased in sex-hormone dependent tissue, so that might explain that.

  2. I have no clue why finasteride should make this happen, unless for some reason the body is still stuck in an enhanced form of metabolism after quitting. (Xenobiotics, like finasteride - and sex hormones are acted upon by Phase 1 and Phase 2 metabolism in exactly the same way).

  3. DHT levels are normal. For this theory to work either DHT sulfate must be detected as normal DHT or both DHT and DHT sulfate are present at the same time.

Since enhanced metabolism definately can cause the symptoms it is a good theory and worth testing for. (in reality it is the only theory that adequatley explains the stranger symptoms and the ‘crash’). It also explains why NO ONE is growing gynocemastia - estrogens are deactivated in exactly the same way.


I am not stuck on this one theory and I am now investigating 5aR’s role in the CNS.

perhaps a dumb question, but could a PXR agonist be useful in any way?

Just two examples:
Pregnane X receptor activation ameliorates DSS-induced inflammatory bowel disease
ajpgi.physiology.org/content/292/4/G1114.short

Pregnane X receptor (PXR) activation: A mechanism for neuroprotection
pnas.org/content/103/37/13807.full

seems that the vdr and pxr are related
montp.inserm.fr/u632/pages/Cross-talk_VDR-PXR.html

this was also taken from the marshall protocol site:

st johns wort is an anxiolotic and works by activating the PXR
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperforin

Well i suppose every part of the body is related. I mention the PXR because it is involved in the metabolism/removal of xenobiotics as well as endogenous hormones (including vitamin-D it seems - jci.org/articles/view/23995) therefore it is something worth exploring.

Hi Oscar,
does the_Ruffneck’s test has anything to do with your theory?
I am in my office and have not time to read any thing in detail, but when looked at your theory thought about this, it has been stuck in my mind for long.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1398&p=10242#p10242

Sounds about right. Unfortunately there is no such thing as ‘liver detox’ the test he had sounds like quackery to me.

The tests for hormone metabolism are available here: questdiagnostics.com/hcp/files/endo2002.pdf.

so you are saying liver can be part of our problem as well? if so

1- why applying DHT cream has no effect?( as you did not experience any effect neither did Awor.)
2-The closest to us might be alcoholic people. Does any body knows any hypogonadal male from alcohol and then not benefit from TRT?

Which exact test from quest? It seems to be a large PDF of all endocrine test

Im just saying that by inceasing the enzymes involved in the final metabolism (excretion) of hormones, it will result in androgen deprevation. These enzymes are mostly found in the liver, but may also be organ specific. Thats all Im saying, thats the conclusion I eventually reached.

This can happen.

Pregnane X receptor as a therapeutic target to inhibit androgen activity. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20962047

This one: nicholsinstitute.com/TestDetail.aspx?TestID=254 6 Beta-Hydroxycortisol, 24-Hour Urine. Measures hepatic cytochrome P450 enzyme (CYP3A4) induction (see the above quote).

glad you found that study - perhaps we need to look for a pxr antagonist, then?

also maybe that is why the broccoli treatment has worked for some.

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00621309
“Thus, when a drug that induces CYP3A4 is given with or before another drug that is metabolized by 3A4, a ‘drug-drug’ interaction occurs because the first drug (the inducer) greatly changes the rate at which the second drug (CYP3A4 substrate) is removed from the body. Many drugs increase CYP3A4 activity by binding to a receptor called the Pregnane-X-Receptor (PXR), which is a major switch that controls the expression of the CYP3A4 gene. Using human liver cells we have demonstrated that sulforaphane (SFN), found in broccoli, can block drugs from activating the PXR receptor, thereby inhibiting the switch that causes CYP3A4 induction.”

also, i will see if that test is available at my local manhattan quest, but that institute points to another location

The recoveries that we do have, ihp and letsconvienance did not happen over night, they were along process, both noting that they had periods where they got worse before they got better. Perhaps there is a detox period if there is liver dysfunction.

I remember when i came off fin i had above range copper levels in my blood and below range (pretty much nothing) in my urine.
A few other people have returned high metal tests also (not the root cause of course :blush: )
Perhaps there is a Herxheimer type reaction.

Letsconvinance -

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15454728

Ihp used antifungels which Fluconazole is a inhibitor of CYP enzymes.

I’m going to try niacinamide starting tonight. It’s supposed to help slow down phase 1 liver detox. My bilirubin seems to be going higher and higher out of range… Suggesting a sluggish phase 2 detox to go with the Gilberts syndrome my doctor said I have.

Did anyone get this test yet? It is unavailable in New Zealand.

Has anyone taken a look at this theory lately?