Testogel.

Hypo I agree. An FLDP or Functional Liver Detoxification Profile is the one to get along with your normal Liver blood tests.

Theres a possibility that I am undermethylated so SAMe may help in my situation. I have tried Calcium D Glucarate and DIM (a few different kinds) with no success. Hopefully the SAMe can help with producing Glutathione which might just open up my liver more. I know i am low on Glutahione but i did not resopond to Glutahione supplementation - a commone thing.

Can you give us some insight on the mechanics of how poor estrogen metabolism is caused and the effects of it and possible ways to treat it?

Also I wonder how this happens so quickly (knowing there MAY have been underlying issues) through taking finasteride…I wonder what triggered it.

A random question here, but can someone tell me what an utlra sensitive estrogen assay is? Is it that it just has ref ranges of say 10 - 50 instead of <150?

I talked to my lab today, they confirm my theory about values. So in my first test the number <150 mean its too low to measure. Second lab an increase to value with in the range and therefor they also post the ranges.

With this info in hand i know my e2 while still low went up quite abit. I have decided to leave my doc as he gives me faulty information and dont seem to be interested in how i react to the treatment. Have scheduled a new apointment with a hospital endo in begining july. hopefully he will be more openminded to a more indiviual treatment than the mainstream diagnosis i feel i have recieved so far.

Hypo - i appreciate all yr knowledge and more so yr dedication to trying to help us with nothing financially in it for yrself.

I know i need to lower my shgb as u suggest, that was my doc suggestions too, he reasoned that a higher level of T could bring it down, thus the testogel prescription. I dont wont to go on danazol without a drs approval or monitoring so what other options is worth a try. Most drugs/herbs that claim to lower shbg or bind to it also seem to have the effect of reducing 5 ar activity or binding to DHT. Is nettles worth a shot in yr opinon or is it another snake oil, did any1 in her try nettels?

Cheers

I’m afraid I do not know about the ins and outs of liver function enough to know the mechanisms that cause drugs to cause metabolic hormonal issues.

In terms of treating poor metabolisation of estrogen- DIM is something that some people claim helps effectively remove estradiol from the liver. The claim remains unproven to my knowledge, but some people believe it has helped them.

If estradiol is overtly high or even relatively high then lowering it via a prescribed and monitored course of an aromatase inhibitor can help prevent the negative feedback cycle and the cascade of negative effects. If SHBG is overtly high or relatively high then Danazol can help prevent the negative feedback cycle and the cascade of negative effects.

There can also be a place for TRT in combination with either or both of the above depending upon the individual situation.

If there is no other hormonal cause for elevated SHBG and metabolic hypogonadism appears to be the cause if testosterone is increased and estradiol kept in check then SHBG might also be lowered

But when SHBG is high or low adverse endocrine metabolic effects can be present and other causative conditions should be considered and ruled out or treated.

e.g

Low SHBG can be a sign of hypothyroidism for instance, high SHBG can conversely be caused by hyperthyroidism.

Underlying causative conditions must also therefore be considered and ruled out or treated. Naturally treating an underlying condition can also help correct sex hormones based issues by bringing SHBG to a more acceptable level.

Low levels of Zinc, excessive alcohol intake and obesity can also cause problems relating to SHBG. Of course the latter of the three can be part and parcel of the problem and obesity can in the first place be caused by a hormonal imbalance so that can be a little bit of a chicken and egg scenario.

Questions like that are impossible for me to answer and might be impossible for anyone to answer at this time. I very much doubt that there is one answer.

That said I will do my best to offer and answer.

Some people are affected by finasteride while others are not. The degree of problems/symptoms found between individuals vary greatly based upon the extent of the problem incurred and the form of the problem incurred. As we have seen finasteride causes a multitude of differing endocrine problems. Even just considering the sex hormonal effects that are proven we have seen men with;

Elevated SHBG and low free testosterone levels, men with acceptable levels of SHBG but low LH and low total and free testosterone levels, men with elevated estradiol levels etc.

A wide variety of adverse effects then.

The dose and duration of use of finasteride is almost certainly a factor and it is probable that many people are to differing degrees predisposed to a variety of problems.

Some people are probably predisposed to adverse effects via boarderline hormonal status be that via the sex hormones or potentially other hormonal effects, some people may have had little predisposition but took sufficient doses of finasteride to cause adverse effects. Others could potentially have a predisposition to or undiagnosed poor liver function. Some people have suggested or theorized about other potential effects or predispositions.

As you can see that isn’t an acceptable answer, it is just the best one that I can offer and I think this is something that Dr Shippen, Dr Crisler and other doctors treating these conditions are also somewhat flummoxed by. Of course they may be able to supply a better and more detailed answer that can be evidenced; you would have to ask them.

I think the plain fact of the matter is that no product containing finasteride should have been licensed for anything other than the most serious of conditions, that finasteride is a poison to the endocrine system at the least and that it simply should not be licensed in the manner that it is.

It might seem strange that a drug can cause such wide ranging side-effects and problems. But one look at the side-effects found on any medication does give you an idea of the wide variety of differing physiological response that different people have with even the most mild and safe medications

It is an assay where the equipment is calibrated around low estradiol levels that are more typical of that found in the male body as opposed to the usual and FAR more common assay, where equipment is calibrated around the much high levels found in the female body. The latter is often unhelpful when trying to consider low levels of estradiol as the reference range can completely exclude the levels that one wishes to look at or can result in a questionable result because of a lack of sensitivity.

As long as estradiol is kept in check then it might be possible to lower shbg via TRT- might being the operative word. But TRT is less favorable than a fully/near fully functioning endocrine system which is why Danazol alone might be a better option.

But what he is saying might work, but only if estradiol does not become elevated as this would have a tendency to increase SHBG and/or cause its own issues.

You could take your doctors advice and increase TRT and see how you do. If you feel great at first and then feel ill again- look to elevated estradiol or SHBG and act accordingly in tandom with your doctor.

s-prolactin 5.4 (2-12)
s-fsh 2.4 (1.4-1
s-lh 1.6 (1.5-9.3
s-östradiol 47 (30-160)
s-dheas (wont get results till later this week)
s-shbg 39 (11-52)
s-testosterone 12 (8.8-32)
s-testosterone bioactive (wont get results till later this week)
p-psa 0.86 (<4)

well the new results are in s-dheas 9.6 (2.6-14.4) s-testosterone bioactive 4.9 (6.3-16).

wonder what made me so horny and why i had such good erection while on that gel. 4 possibilities as i c this.

  1. Blood samples are not indicative of actual hormone levels i had most time on the gel. these tests were done in the morning and im never horny in the morning (alltho this sounds abit far fetched to me tho).

  2. Increasing östradiol (had alot of the symptoms from low E b4 gel so might make sence)

  3. Increased DHT (well we know this happends on the gel and could definetly be related to increased libido) Too bad they dont know how to measure it over here unless 1 goes to anti doping lab.

  4. Prostate health. This is abit weird since i took some saw palmetto at a few times for what i felt was enlarged/sore prostate.

What baffels me is the fact that if these test values are indeed similar to the levels i had on the gel most of the time, then how could i be so horny with a clinicly low bio T, everywhere i go they say u need high bio T to be horny. Dont make any sence to me. Placebo effect? well if that was a placebo effect than i would say its all down to beeing in our heads after all, and i really dont think this is the case…

pls share if u think i might overlooked any possibilities

why is everyone so concerened about their balls shrinking while on T gel?
Im using it & while I have actually had the opposite effect ( mine have gotten bigger!) I would have thought that as the balls arent working anyway surely it would be advantageous to get them smaller?
Id sure like mine to be smaller as they just get in the way when i wear tight jeans etc. :confused:

Because it’s a very real and likely side effect of TRT unless you take something like hCG to maintain fertility/size?

Interesting. Since this is your first post, could you elaborate on your history with the drug, side effects, why you are on TRT, has it made any difference?

Huh… what guy would actually WANT their nuts to be small? This makes no sense…

Is this a joke … ? Or are you serious, lol…

im perfectly serious! :unamused:
I was diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism about 2,1/2 years ago after developing various symptoms: gynecomastia, lack of libido, lack of strength, suicidal tendancies, fatigue, loss of body hair etc. i was given various blood tests that pointed to pituitary problems & had stimulation tests & an MRI all of which luckily did not show up any tumours but also did not manage to pin down the cause.
I was then given TRT in the form of “Striant”:- Tablets you suposedly “stick” to your upper gum 24/7. without going into detail, they dont live up to their manufacturers sales crap! I certainly wouldnt recommend them!
I then tried a shot of Sustenon. This nearly crippled me for 2 days & no effect on my symptoms even tho i had read T shots work almost instantaniously!
So next came Testogel. This gave me back my libido after a few days, & as I said has also shrunk my gye a bit, & seems to have expanded my scrotum!
One other side effect is the growth of hair at the application sites! (also unwanted!)
I am also a lot more mentally stable but other factors were involved there too.
I only speak for myself but large balls certainly give me no pleasure!
Im not talking about my PENIS here BTW!!! :smiley:
maybe some guys do get turned on by looking like Billy the Bull but not me, Id have them off in a second! all they do is get in the way.

I see. Did you in fact take Finasteride? Do you have bloodwork? When was this diagnosis made, was it after you came off the drug (if you took it) or while you were on it?

If you wouldn’t mind posting your full story in the Members Stories section of this website, it would be much appreciated.

Cheers and thanks for the insight into TRT!

Hi again all.

Thought id share with u my latest results, dont know how long its been since im off propecia since its not constantly on my mind anymore. I feel alot better, even back to working again.

Im not cured, i still have some weird knots in my chest, some abdominal bloating and feelings of fatigue from time to time. I also get prostatitis every year in the fall. Like a clock… No difference this year, thats why i have the new labs since i thought id have a look at hormones again.

Ive obviously had some really good progress in terms of total and free T however as u can c, progesterone shows its ugly face!

Havent been on any medications or diets in a long time other than that i have found out im allergic to gluten, so obviously no bread pasta etc.

New labs:

LH: 3.4 (1.2 - 9.6)
FSH: 4.4 (1.0 - 12.5)
IGF-1: 236 (140-370)
SHBG: 30 (15-56)
Total T: 23 (10-30)
Bio T: 13 (6.3 - 16)
Prolactin: 7.6 (3-13)
E2: <150 (guess wrong test but i was below lowest b4 so i doubt its an issue)
Progesterone: 6.3 (<3.0) *

Considering last labs drawn i was below the bottom on bio T and just at the low mark on total T i feel really possitivly about these results. I kind of had a feeling they would be better since ive been feeling alot better but still its nice to c it on paper.

So how to lower the progesterone safely?

Ive lost the little knowledge i had about this stuff since i havent been worried about it in a long time.

Comments appriciated.

Hope lots of you have improved aswell!!

thx

Good post. He also mentioned prolactin. If his prolactin levels are indeed elevated it could cause low trestosterone levels and increase estrogen to the point of causing gyno. IF prolactin is the issue then a specific prolactin inhibitor could solve all of the above.

Absolutely not true. ALL exogenous testosterone will take anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks depending on the person to achieve the full effects.