Poll: Please take this **yes/no poll**--have you performed these tests?

General Discussion
#1

Have you performed physical tests (Doppler Ultrasound, DICC, etc) for E.D. aside from T, DHT labwork?

  • Yes - found nothing
  • Yes - found physical issue (i.e. arterial blockage, veinous leak, etc). Please elaborate.
  • No - I have not had any physical testing

0 voters

For those of you who still have E.D., have you performed physical testing to rule out biological issues that may have been caused or worsened by Finasteride in addition to low T / DHT, etc? Yes/No? If so, what were the results? Note: I edited the original post for clarity, hence some disparities between later responses/quotes of my original post.

Fin destroyed my T, DHT levels, and I’m on meds that are adressing that. Comprehensive physical tests (doppler ultrasound, DICC or dynamic cavernosometry, etc) revealed additional causality that may need to be addressed.

This is an excerpt of my diagnosis:
Quantitative sensory testing revealed elevated vibratory, cold and heat perception threshold values consistent with mild sensory neuropathy of the dorsal nerve branches of the pudendal nerve. Hemodynamic testing with duplex Doppler revealed normal Gray scale findings including mild corporal fibrosis, absent tunical thickness, absent septal thickness, and absent cavernosal artery atherosclerosis. This test also revealed abnormal duplex Doppler findings, with low peak systolic velocity values and absent end diastolic velocity values consistent with cavernosal artery insufficiency and normal corporal veno-occlusive function. Hemodynamic testing with dynamic cavernosometry revealed a 33 mmHg gradient between the brachial artery and the right cavernosal artery systolic occlusion pressure values and a 29 mmHg gradient between the brachial artery and the left cavernosal artery systolic occlusion pressure values. The study revealed elevated gradients between the cavernosal and brachial arteries consistent with failure to fill ED. Intracavernosal phenylephrine was required for detumescence. Translation: my dick was less sensitive to heat, cold, touch (hormonal?) and my dick’s blood pressure is lower than my regular blood pressure indicating a “bottleneck” down there. [Most likely caused or greatly exacerbated by Finasteride.]

[Xhorndog] does have arterial vascular occlusive disease to the cavernosal arteries and he should obtain a selective internal pudendal arteriogram to follow-up on this important erectile function finding. Translation: I have an artery blockage (not cholesterol, though), akin to a blocked artery in the heart. I can elect (and likely will in the next 2 months) to have an arteriogram, or “X-Ray” of the situation, which will serve as a more detailed roadmap should I decide to do a re-vascularization procedure.

My theory/best guess is that fin screws up everyone’s levels of T and DHT, etc, but those of us that don’t recover (either by the body naturally healing/restoring normal hormonal values over time, or through diet/supplementation or meds/TRT), may have had some pre-existing condition which finasteride exacerbated [or completely created]. Regardless, the physical damage may have been done. The lack of androgens which fin caused, made our penises atrophy (I’ve read this from studies on this board). This can be restored to some extent over time via replacing missing hormones and use of PDE5 inhibitors (Viagra, Cialis) which improve vascularization. But how much, and after how long? I don’t know.

Aside from hormonal and therefore physical damage which Finasteride exacts, other things that can manifest themselves in E.D. years after they occur: bicycle riding, a hard kick to the groin, pevlic trauma, falling on a fence or bike as a child, etc. It’s possible you have a veinous leak, not enough arteries, a blockage, etc.

How many of you have ruled out physical/biological E.D. via aformentioned testing? Make no mistake about it, I think fin is the devil, and it screwed up my system; not until I began hormonal therapy a few months ago did I start to get relief from my symptoms: outbursts of hives across my body, exhaustion/depression, urinary start/stop control problems. And I think that the studies that show how fin atrophies the penile infrastructure are clear…

…but I am where I am right now. And you might be in this same place, or headed there. All my symptoms have subsided (and never did I lose my libido–only function) after being on meds, but E.D. persists. There is physical damage. All the proper eating, exercising, nightly Cialis, TRT/meds might help make me feel better…but it might take 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 years (or never) to reverse my E.D. with just this route. I’ve found a definite contributer (if not the total final piece of the puzzle for myself). And I’d feel more comfortable going through with re-vascularization surgery if I found out that a bunch of you also had the same physical findings. And I’m sure a lot of you would find relief in finding out conclusively if there is a physical aspect to your diagnosis, or not.

This is why I urge you, if you’ve read this, please simply state if you’ve done additional, physical testing. It’s your perrogative if you want to pursue this line of testing, but it really would add to our dialogue on this board if we had a better indication of how many of us have physical damage or simply don’t know. The more we find we have in common (or not), the clearer the picture becomes. Thanks!

For Reference:
Penile Revascularization / Microvascular Arterial Bypass Surgery for Erectile Dysfunction:
http://www.sandiegosexualmedicine.com/index.php?gender=m&page=male%2Fsexual-medicine-treatments%2Fpenile-revascularization

Penile Rehabilitation for E.D. (reiterates the damage done with absent penile activity, prostate damage)
sandiegosexualmedicine.com/i … bilitation

Exercise / Diet / E.D. + Bicycle Warning
sandiegosexualmedicine.com/i … rcise-diet

My Member Story:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3179

My labwork (latest data at bottom)
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3180

#2

While Finasteride, through androgen deprivation and loss of DHT, can impact penile tissues (amongst other things), many here (young men in their prime, no doubt) had NO pre-existing health problems, loss of libido or ED prior to use of the drug.

The manufacturer states ED, loss of libido and reduced ejaculate are side effects of the drug. This is in fact what occured for many who took it.

For me personally, I never had any issues with erections before Finasteride, was always able to perform like a champ, blew big loads and actively craved sex daily – in other words, I was a normal adult male. However while on and since Finasteride, this is no longer the case.

The fact the drug destroys the prostate and causes loss of nocturnal/spontaneous/morning morning erections, is a sure sign something biological & physical is going on, thanks to its effects on hormones and loss of DHT in 5AR2 dependent tissues.

The tests you describe are useful for assessing post-Fin penile hemodynamic and cavernosal function; however, they are a symptom of the overall problem, rather than the cause. As for Finasteride unmasking some “pre-existing condition” in us, I seriously doubt it – unless you are referring to the fact we aged literally overnight to have the hormonal profiles of an 80 year old man, which at that stage of our lives we may very well have acquired ED in time.

#3

Neither did I, or so I thought. I felt like Tiger Woods. I’m trying to reconcile how I can have 2 findings. To clarify: fin may have caused or exacerbated a pre-existing condition. I have no way of knowing. Either way, if we find that we have a physical impediment at the present time, addressing it may be just as important as replenishing our hormonal profile.

Ditto for me.

Agreed. Although nocturnals and morning erections have come back (60-70%) for me since being on TRT…is the final missing piece the lack of blood flow for me? That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

Correct. I would think that people who aren’t even aware of this level of testing might be interested in finding what damage fin, genetics, injury or whatever have exacted.

Anytime I pose this question in private message, I get a similar reaction: fin caused our predicament. I AGREE!!! But I don’t know whether it caused it entirely, or contributed. IT’S A HORRIBLE DRUG, LET ME SAY THAT LOUD AND CLEAR!! I’m not trying to absolve Merck or the damn drug of culpability. I’m trying to figure out how I could have 2 diagnoses. Would it have happened anyway? Was it made worse? Was it caused solely by fin? Will surgery do the trick, or did the drug do more than affect the basic hormones I’m testing? I’m in the same boat you guys are in, my dick doesn’t work and I’m miserable on the inside, my life is on hold. I’m sick of it, and I’m leaning towards doing the arteriogram and quite likely the re-vascularization procedure. But I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t scared I was missing something, if I wasn’t afraid that the damage fin did was far deeper.

At the same time, I want to raise awareness for the range of physical tests that are available at top urologists’ offices. Maybe once a few of us get additional testing, we find that we have some things in common. I have found only 2 cases of people doing physical testing on this board. In one case, the person had an arterial blockage like mine. In the other, the person found that they had fewer arteries than normal; they elected to have a penile implant. There was no further update on his case, although implants (although permanent), have a high sucess rate. 3 of the stated cases where additional physical testing was done yielded additional causes of E.D. This is too small a sample size. Everyone on this board is understandably obsessed with hormonal levels, myself included. But how can we ignore physical tests? I’m trying to sound the gong here. If you’ve gotten physical tests and have results to report, please share! If you haven’t, maybe you’ll consider doing them? Let’s gather some data.

#4

Well, that is the million dollar question. My January labs revealed that T and DHT were through the roof (on Clomid, Testim). Maybe they don’t need to be in order to cure my E.D. I’m now on an E-inhibitor as well (arimidex), but assuming I tweak the levels just right…what then? Maybe I’m not testing a comprehensive-enough panel. Prior to committing to any surgery, I will broaden the scope.

Either fin screwed up more than the hormonal values which a lot of us are able to re-up…or it atrophied us phsyically down there…or we had something going on anyway (in addition)…

I don’t have some magic answer to the hormonal side…but I have a definite diagnosed impediment. Will fixing that cure me? I don’t know. But I’d feel a helluva lot more comfortable going into surgery if I knew that, say, 10 other on this board got physical tests and had similar findings.

#5

Maybe… but who knows if or when? Nobody can predict the future.

Maybe you would have acquired ED when you’re 80 years old, but as a result of Fin use, now have decimated T levels after quitting and end up with the hormonal profile of that 80 yr old man in your 20s – hastening the manifestation of any “pre-existing condition”, which might have occured far in the future in your old age, at that time.

Considering you had normal erectile function before Fin, to having ED afterwards, then yea – I’d say Finasteride did make your sexual health worse… wouldn’t you?

I’m not sure why you are questioning yourself? As mentioned – these side effects are listed by the manufacturer. Before drug you were fine.

You then took the drug, experienced the aforementioned side effects, and they haven’t gone away since quitting. There are really no other variables at play here if you were a normal, healthy male with no pre-existing health conditions before Finasteride.

Not to mention penile/scrotal atrophy, loss of morning/nocturnal/spontaneous erections and various other physical changes aren’t psychosomatic, but real physical manifestations of androgen deprivation therapy – in this case, as a result of Finasteride use.

You seem to be focusing purely on the mechanics of erectile function, which may only apply to your select case.

I say that because I don’t recall if your Finasteride-related issues extend beyond ED, but for many here they do (ie, complete loss of libido, gyno, muscle atrophy, muscle twitches, memory loss, cognitive problems, etc). The drug affects us differently based on a number of common symptoms.

So, if in your case you have a raging libido but simply can’t get or stay hard since taking Fin, then yes – surgery or Viagra may do the trick. If on the other hand you have many of the other symptoms, surgery will not give you back a raging libido or correct memory problems, muscle atrophy etc.

The drug without a doubt impacts a number of hormones beyond simply DHT. I’m sure you’ve reviewed the Finasteride Studies section by now and have realized this. So it’s not only entirely possible, but also very likely, the drug affected far more than the basic hormones we are testing – it’s possible it could have affected areas we have no knowledge of, even, until we are studied in a lab.

I’m not sure I understand the question – are you saying despite Clomid and TRT, you are NOT having a desirable response in terms of ED improvements/ other symptoms?

Fantastic, if you can. The bigger picture one can get the better. A 24 urine panel from Rhein labs may be worth considerng.

That’s certainly possible, hence the existence of the THEORIES section of this website.

Yes, it does for many after the post-Fin crash in androgen levels. Not to mention it destroys and atrophies your prostate while you’re on it, which is a vital organ for sexual function, penile health etc, and deprives 5AR2 tissues such as penis and scrotum of vital DHT, which is necessary to maintain proper penile tissue structure and function.

Highly unlikely, for reasons mentioned previously.

It depends what you mean by cure. As mentioned, if your only problems are ED, then it may. If you are suffering from far more than decreased erectile function, it will not.

I’m not arguing with you here, I’m agreeing with you. Any testing we can get is better than none, to help shed further light on what the drug may have done, which may provide more answers on how to fix the problem(s).

Cheers.

#6

Hey Mew, in response to your above post: I agree, we agree, lol.

We’re both saying the same thing. Finasteride drastically negatively alters an otherwise healthy man’s hormonal profile. Furthermore, the lack of androgens in one’s system due to Finasteride’s effects atrophies the penis, the prostate, and consequently their function.

So, given that, I’m encouraging people here to come forward and simply make a quick post: “I have had my hormones tested, but I have had no physical testing.” Please folks, chime in. And if you have had testing, what were the results? It doesn’t hurt to cast as wide a net as possible, and to share our experiences.

As far as non-E.D. side effects: I experienced many side effects from Finasteride, starting with exhaustion…just utter exhaustion, feeling like an old man. Not being able to get out of bed, not having the energy to take out the trash or do simple tasks. I had panic attacks, general anxiety. My whole body felt like it was deteriorating. I had outbreaks of hives in my pelvic region, on my leg, and abdomen. They would come and go with no rhyme or reason. I also had insane itchiness, particularly associated with the hives, but not exclusively. I had trouble starting my urinary steam, and trouble stopping it. I’d flush, zip up, and still leak out unexpectedly.

I’ve also experienced trouble in remembering names or recalling names I really should know. Just blanking out. But I noticed a correlation between short term memory and my college drinking habits. I don’t know how much fin contributed to this.

So Finasteride did a lot to me, it destroyed my body, my well-being, my balance, my esteem. I felt like I was falling apart. And it kicked in a vicious cycle of relative depression (I was still a social, outwardly optimistic person on the outside even as I was miserable inside) and seeking comfort in booze, energy through awful energy drinks. It completely scarred my self-confidence, and inflicted psychological pain. It stripped me of my essence.

But you are correct–I never waned in libido. I’ve never stopped checking out women, I tried to fuck even when I I had total noodle-dick. I only began avoiding normal dating to prevent further embarrassment from failure and to focus on healing: lifting weights, running, cooking/eating super-healthy. Cialis worked to an extent. Now, it seems as if I need a higher dose. I also am battling the nerves. The biological causes have given me understandable fear. Since I’ve quit drinking, I no longer have something to take the edge off and let Cialis do it’s thing (when I did booze it up, I went on auto-pilot with Cialis). It takes me 2 minutes of looking at porn (yep, I friggin’ timed it, to get some arousal down there, without touching myself). And all I get for an erection is comparable to your index finger pointing down. Once I stroke it long enough, I can get to 70-80% full.

So, you can see, given my doctor’s finding that I have a blockage, and that I have some pulse down there (after 4 months of meds)…given that all the aforementioned side effects have completely subsided (except for urinary stream–still seems weaker than before), I’m kind of optimistic/hopeful that the answer does lie in the piping.

I’m only thinking aloud when I ask if Fin completely caused the blockage or only contributed to it. And the picture would be a lot clearer if 20 people from this board had physical testing done and found that they too had a blockage. Or not.

I’m trying not to convince myself that the blockage must be the final link at the expense of not addressing something hormonal. I went to an endocrinologist a few weeks ago, had printout after printout of studies and labwork, etc, all highlighted…he did nothing for me. Wouldn’t test anything. Only told me that I should do a liver panel with my PCP. Doubted that fin could have effects after being out of my system for over a year. Really, I said. Even though one year after quitting my Testosterone went from 500 to 330???

Anyways, I am going to go back to my PCP and get more labs. Everything was spot on with respect to liver health, blood, cholesterol, etc. when I tested at 500 T. I’m healthier now, my liver’s cleaner than it previously was with all my drinking. I don’t have any symptoms other than E.D.

Since none of us did any baseline hormonal testing prior to taking Fin, and none of us had any prior reason to do physical testing, we have NO idea where we were at prior to this nasty drug. But do we have an accurate picture with only bloodwork? I might be beating a dead horse here, but however we got to this state—if we can test to rule out or discover a physical manifestation of E.D. cause–why are we not taking this step?

for reference, my story:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3179

my bloodwork is in the bloodwork section, it’s more updated

#7

The last 2 weeks I had raging hard ons while I was skiing, hard hard, 100%. Last night I couldn’t get hard enough for sex. I have also been pretty static the last 4 days though and was sick.

When our bodies were metabolizing and excreting Fin from our systems it was damaging to our liver and kidneys. Also, our bodies had to over produce enzymes to do this. After Fin is excreted from the system the bodies can still overproduce these enzymes due to inability to balance things out for one reason or another. This prevents proper hormone balance in addition to other damage. The enzymes needed to produce dht are lacking but those producing estrogen are still at full force, for example.

I have not had physical testing done because I don’t believe it’s necessary. If there were a physical problem I wouldn’t have had the hard ons I had over the past 2 weeks.

#8

I don’t doubt the severe damage fin has caused on our systems. But it’s untrue that just because you had random erections that eliminates the possibility that there’s a physical component. Without testing, there’s no way to confirm. Just like you can’t guess your Testosterone level.

Sexual situations bring on the nerves, and at this point, most of us are shot in that department. Hence, why, I can take a bunch of Cialis and booze and perform fine. But if I’m sober, or too preoccupied, Cialis does nothing. Booze shouldn’t help erectile function. But it does calm the nerves, and I’m seriously fried there.

There is a case study I read of a successful re-vascularization procedure. The person could occasionally function, but it had to be under super-ideal circumstances: on a relaxing vacation, away from work, etc. Before doing the surgery, the person tried Papervine injections. He raced home in his car with a boner, only to lose it before being able to have sex with his girlfriend. Anxiety killed his erection. In a normally functioning man, slight nerves are not enough to overcome the erection process. In our compromised systems, that is unfortunately the case.

I still have more hormonal testing to exhaust. But if I can get it up with Cialis, and Cialis increased blood flow, and I have a diagnosed blood flow problem…well, I’m trying not to jump the gun, but it seems like a promising route to pursue.

#9

Actually booze does help me in the erection department. It’s just a very temporary solution. I think it spikes adrenals among other things…

#10

I don’t know what it does, other than it seems that when my nerves are calmed by it, a modest amount of Cialis works…just 10mg.

I can take 100mg and not have much anything happen if I’m stark sober.

I have to really be loose and turned on, and then I feel close to my old self. I’m becoming convinced it’s a piping issue at this point, but every time I read theories about receptor desensitivity and adrenals and the like, I get freaked out.

I’m seeing the doc this week, going to get the exhaustive list of hormones from the FAQ tested to see if there are any other indicators of damage, any new levels to try tweaking. Also going to discuss the high Cortisol.

#11

Hydrocole and Varicole were revealed by ultrasound